Hey, I saw that three of my images were candidates for deletion. Was it because I didn't name the files as Fan:Digimon, or was it some other lisencsing issue that I forgot or didn't know about? If it is the former, would it be easier for the three images to be deleted and then reuploaded with the proper names, or is it at all possible for me to change them? Sorry for the mess I created >_<
No prob. And don't worry too much about the deletion tag -- we have stuff that's been marked for a few years, that we haven't had time to axe yet. The mere fact that you actually bothered to ask how to correct your license already puts you at the top of the "good egg" list.
Well, sure; I know how difficult it is to maintain a wiki and protect it from vandals and trolls, and I don't want to be a part of the problem, especially since I'm highly dependent on this wiki for my fanfictions.
Hi! Earlier I tried making some notes on ages, but I noticed they were reverted? My information comes from https://www.tokyo-icc.jp/guide_eng/educ/01.html (an official Japanese government source), which details the Japanese school system. Since Taichi has his Tri age noted , I think the other main characters should have their estimated Tri ages noted as well, or the profiles aren't uniform when it comes to that. Also, since we may be getting news on a potential sequel coming soon (either during the July event or August 1st) even if they are at an earlier age in Tri 1, they'd most likely be up a grade/age in a Tri 2 regardless (for example, Taichi would likely be 18 if this is the case) so estimating ages seems like it should be ok. (Most fandom spaces tend to use these assumed ages too, since they use the school system.) Please let me know what you think? Thanks! Kageprofan24100 (talk) 16:50, July 16, 2018 (UTC)
Unfortunately, while all of this would make sense if the canon was consistent about the ages and grades, it is not. The various sources have made it clear that, whichever rules are being followed for rules and grades within the Digimon setting, they do not match the real world. Therefore, it would be inaccurate to claim any ages or grades based on real-world estimates. This is also emphasized in the editing window, which states "All edits must be sourced to published material".
I understand your points, but out of curiosity if you have a reference, may I ask where in the Adventures/Tri series (not "Our War Game", either, since I understand that movie was something of an issue timing wise, but it appeared to have its own other issues re: directing) specifically that the grades do not match a real world setting? Because I've watched Tri in Japanese, and they appear to line up fine (with Taichi being 17 in high school, for example, and Koushiro+Mimi following him into high school, having been in a grade below him in Adventure. Seasons reflecting things, etc.) This is why I thought at least estimates (16-17, 17-18 etc.) would be good because regardless of any assumed or lack of "birthdays" one could give or take a year and still be in line with "Taichi is 17 in high school". (For example, it's unlikely they'd remain in high school past 18 with what Taichi goes on to do post-Tri, or that Koushiro+Mimi would follow him in while not being 16-17, having said they were a grade below in Adventure. Please let me know if this makes sense?) Thank you for your response as well. (I would understand if this couldn't be used for characters outside Adventures because of that, though.)
"not "Our War Game", either" -- Our War Game is as canon as the Adventure anime seasons.
"This is why I thought at least estimates This is why I thought at least estimates" -- as I explained, they're not. This wiki allows only the information that's actually stated in the official material, not estimates.
I appreciate that you believe your estimates to be reasonable and proportionate. They are still estimates.
Understandable, thanks for letting me know.
I do believe perhaps the age inconsistency should be noted, at the least? Perhaps under trivia or references for "Our War Game", if it isn't already.
In the event a Tri sequel is announced, would it still be reasonable to bump up the others' ages (or at least mention they're "a grade higher" in high school) by a year if Taichi is 18, for example? (In the text on their articles, the ages are mentioned still as "sixteen".) If they're 18+ anyhow then it could be left alone. (This would be in the event it is a Tri sequel, though the chances seem very high.)
(I believe it should be brought up as well that the school system / age mentions are already referenced on their pages. For example, under Kari's age, a reference that was not added in by me was previously already there for a very long time: "In the Japanese version of Adventure 02, Hikari is stated to be starting 5th grade at the start of the show, which in the real-world format of the Japanese class system would imply that she was instead age 10 at the start of the series." This is the case for all of the main characters, which is why I brought it up to begin with. If it was being used as a reference before, it could still be used for their high school ages in Tri, at least under "notes" - though I understand, especially if that was added in without your knowledge.)
"If it was being used as a reference before" --- yeah, I can see how it would look that way.
While the coding is basically interchangeable on wikia, that's actually being used as a note, not a citation. The main article only includes the ages/grades explicitly covered in the fiction itself, and all that note is meant to do is say "fun fact, this doesn't jive with reality".
"or at least mention they're "a grade higher" in high school"
This would literally be the kind of thing that would be acceptable, in the body of the article. "A year later" or "the next year", or something like that.
The infobox would still only include the ages/grades that have been explicitly stated -- to bring in the grades in tri 2, we would need something like "its been one year since the fight against Meicoomon", or more explicit than that, and for ages we would need to either finally get birthdays, or have "its been exactly X years since [last time ages were provided]".
Understandable, thanks very much for the information. I actually did not know that about notes vs references on the wiki though it's good to know, I was pointing it out just in case.
It's good to know that example is acceptable, then; if no one else edits that in should a sequel be announced (later on).
And, yes, what Marcusbwfc said (thank you for that note) - they also show the date as '[December] 2005' iirc at the very end of Tri, so that's how they were being calculated by the fandom in general as well (at the very least, the grades if not ages). It's enough of a timeframe that one can at least mention the (canonical) years and add 'notes' like those for the high school ages, though again I understand.
(Basically, since there were no official birthdays, instead of saying "sixteen" [only, such as on Mimi's page] one could instead also note the school system under the 'notes' then; like they're already being noted, if that makes sense. But I understand now if waiting for more info is preferred.)
Thanks for explaining and letting me know!
(I apologize for my own confusion on that matter as well.)
"They do state that it's been 3 years since killing MaloMyotismon on tri part 1 tbf" -- then the grades could be added, with the exact quote as a cite.
"But I understand now if waiting for more info is preferred." -- yeah. Due to a lot of conflicting info in the series, the wiki "Resolves" that by simply not trying to pick which publications to record and which to ignore -- we record them all, and happily admit where the info is missing or contradictory.
2005 is shown multiple times in the movies (were shown their phones a lot) so they're using the "Japanese years" for Tri. Is the dub supposed to have Tri be 2006 to make sense? And wouldn't that cause some of the years not to make sense? Kari might be in the higher school for example?
(Received notif for this in messages)
Oh wow, I didn't even know that about the dub version (no longer follow it personally)
But as for which version "counts" - as an example, most of the remaining fanbase considers the Japanese version and the dubs to be "separate" "canon" due to the multitude of changes in the scripts, characterizations, etc. (Also like how the novels were/are considered seperate canon, for example, including on this Wiki? [despite some implied characterizations being common across both the Japanese version and the novels for example, too]) Maybe the same can be said of the dubs for the different series?
(ex. "these grades are canon to the Adventure-02 dub" "these Japanese version grades/years are canon to the Tri dub" - could be noted in "notes" too. Would be good for the fanbases' reference if they're going by/following the dub version's canon)
Sorry for having brought up the topic initially too (lol...). I noticed it before because the bodies of Koushiro and Mimi's articles, for example, mention them being "sixteen" even though "official" ages hadn't actually been given (and noted the school system chart linked in 'notes' on all of their articles too, since that would have applied to Hikari/Kari's age, etc. as well)
ex. Mimi's article - "In 2005, Mimi is now 16 years old and"...
Koushiro's article - "In 2005, Izzy is 16 years old and"...
I think maybe it was confusing some fans within the "fandom" because I've often seen comments like ("aren't they only 16 in Tri??") even though Taichi himself was obviously noted to be "17" and a grade higher than Koushiro&Mimi in Adventure, so he's more like 17~18? (but this is overlooked sometimes it seems, or/and the others' ages/grades within the Japanese school system confuse them.) I do understand the need to maybe wait for more official references though.
@Marcus: if tri had claimed to be two years later, that would have gotten things back in sync without wrecking continuity, but as it is now, any English ages/grades are inextricably fucked. We'd need a retcon a la Spiderman Homecoming saying "no, that date was a mistake, we meant X" to unfuck this.
@Kage: Any grade/year that is stated within the material is already acceptable to be listed as canon, and clarified what season it belongs to. I'm unclear what you're suggesting changing, can you explain?
Also, for the "in 2005" bits, my understanding is that tri does state ages for these characters in either the anime or ancillary material. If it doesn't, then the ages should be removed. That being said, Mimi and Koushiro being 16 would "match" the primary Japanese ages given. I hesitate to call that the "official" ages because we're always finding new claims from different sources. I suppose we could have a dicussion about whether the memorial books are final canon for anime characters, in the same way that the DRB is final canon for Digimon species.
"my understanding is that tri does state ages for these characters in either the anime or ancillary material. If it doesn't, then the ages should be removed."
That's actually the problem at hand, I believe - *only* Taichi's age was ever stated in the introduction summary for Tri.
"[Taichi Yagami], [17 years old]" iirc (I'll have to find the exact scan but yes, it was from one of the introductions / summaries from iirc the official Japanese website?)
Iirc none of the others ever had their exact ages "confirmed" even in the Memorial Books/etc nor in Tri's scripts in the Japanese version. Or, if they had been, I don't think there'd be so much confusion on the ages during Tri. Basically, Koushiro and Mimi, depending on where their hypothetical birthdays fall, could be anywhere from 16~17 being a grade below Taichi, but "16" exact is not an absolute. The same would go for the other younger Chosens' estimations (also going by grades given in 02).
The grades *were* confirmed in Adventure/02 as said, however, which would have given those "estimates" even as far back as then when we only had Adventure & 02 and before Tri.
It's possible Taichi specifically's Adventure/02 age may have been given at some point too but considering the others' ages still cause confusion in the fanbase, especially Sora's because of "Our War Game"'s and the other movies' continuities, I don't think theirs were ever "official".
(Also, it's definitely possible Koushiro or Mimi could have aged a year by the end of Tri already regardless, since the date given is "December" "2005" in Takeru's email at the end of the Japanese version. Hence estimates going by given years/grades/etc.) I'll also have to check the end of that for the exact date but iirc it was around Christmas time.
Going by this again, since Taichi is confirmed 17 (not 16 - 11th grade consists of ages 16~17, meaning Taichi's actually closer to 17), and Koushiro+Mimi are both about a year younger, that'd "likely" place them closer to 16 at start of Tri despite 10th grade/1st year of high school consisting of ages 15~16.
Then, by December 2005, they'd be almost a full year older too already by the end...?
(The Japanese school year begins in April and ends in March. Digimon as a whole w/each season takes place mainly during the summer/August. December at the end of Tri = only three months before March etc.)
Ok, I found another old reference / discussion post on official ages after searching a bit. It's on With the Will but they did give some sources.
"Jō doesn't say he's 11 in the Japanese version, he only says he's in 6th grade. Also, Sora is 14 in 02. The Digimon Series Memorial Book: Digimon Animation Chronicle gives everyone's 02 ages except Takeru's.
-Taichi, Yamato, and Sora: 14
-Kōshirō and Mimi: 13
-Daisuke, Hikari, and Ken: 11
In other words, by Our War Game! Sora has turned 12. It doesn't make sense per the Japanese system, but neither does the movie's date, which is March 4 per all sources even though Japanese spring break is at the end of March."
also "According to one of the books, the movie does indeed take place on March 4."
But, if Koushiro+Mimi are 13 in 02, 7th grade/1st year of Junior high school consists of ages 12~13. Thus, closer to 13 by 02. This would imply their Tri ages to be closer to 16 as well, and possibly closer to 17 by end of Tri / before a sequel. Even if the ages are slightly off real world timing-wise, they appear to match up when comparing with Taichi's official age/grade in Tri as well?
Again, it doesn't matter if the estimated ages or grades jive. All we can use is explicit statements of "character is X years old" or "character is in X grade".
From what you posted, we can use the grades from the animedia article, Tai's age from the trailer/website, the 02 ages from the animation chronicle, joe's 01 grade, and sora's 02 age. We would need to independently verify stuff like the last three, and include quote citations for all of these.
Anything else has to be left for the reader to head-canon. We cannot, ever, claim that something is an official statement if it's not.
Hi, sorry it took me a while to reply! I was waiting for official info on the new movie as said, and also took the time to look for as many timeline references (quoted) as I could, so I hope that might help should the info be wanted here.
- The sequel movie for Digimon Adventure since released information stating Taichi and Yamato's ages to both be 22 in the new movie. Since Sora should technically be the same age, this would apply to her as well, despite the timing issue.
- While scouring the Wikia for sources I saw on Chizuru's page she was confirmed 8th grade and: "She is in middle school and is the same class as Yamato "Matt" Ishida." This being confirmed for Yamato would also confirm 8th grade for Taichi and Sora in 02 (technically Meiko as well), 9th for Jou, and 7th for Koushiro and Mimi. The Tri animedia article did state 2nd year of Junior high (8th grade) for Takeru and Hikari as well, which could also have their grades adjusted accordingly. Their ages, as well - if Taichi is 22 in .tri, for example, and 8th grade in 02 at 14, that would confirm 7th grade at 13 for Koushiro + Mimi, even if it doesn't reflect the real-world school system re: ages (but it does with grades); the rest of them could have their ages/grades adjusted as well. I made some edits again but please fix accordingly if anything looks wrong with the references - to be honest I feel the note that 'they would be this age in a real-world system' (which was already included before I began editing) is really all that's needed to clarify the issue, but yeah.
- I found a ton more references hinting at grades and the timeline in the post-Adventure drama cds, I'm not sure if these can be used? But, there's something really interesting concerning Sora's issue which I'm not sure you were aware of:
(my findings): "Sora’s drama cd track mentions a possible reference to her still being elementary school-aged as of October 2000: “I’m thinking that next time, I will try reading one of your [Sora’s father]’s books. Mom keeps them locked safely behind the shelves. There’s so many of them! I wonder if they’re still too difficult for an [elementary]-schooler to understand…”
I'm sorry for any further confusion caused by that but this would definitely be a canonical source that can be used for Sora's age in Adventure/02, despite the OWG timing issue. I'm pretty sure the drama cds can be taken as canonical references but that's my personal opinion, so I'll leave it to you to decide?
- when adding in Taichi's new age/grade from the sequel movie I was uncertain what to list the sequel movie as ('sequel movie' seemed too long) so I just used 'sequel' for now. If any references look off please correct them accordingly, but they're all canonical references and "official statements", so I don't think they should be left out or deleted just because of the OWG timing issue.
and perhaps the most significant quote for the matter of Sora's age:
“ Q: How long have Meiko and Meikoomon been partners?
A: Meiko’s digivice are the same model as Taichi and party’s, and she’s also the same age as them… ” (*emphasis mine)
(since Meiko is in the same grade as Taichi, Yamato, and Sora, this would imply them all being the 'same age' as quoted.)
- from Animage magazine interview (2016) for Ketsui.
(edit: when posting this Wikia broke my formatting, sorry about that!)
(also, Taichi and Yamato both being confirmed age 22 in the sequel; though we're still waiting for the others' designs to be revealed, it's likely their ages would continue to reflect as been said too. ex. Koushiro & Mimi being 21 as they're only one year younger exactly than Taichi in Adv. + 02, Sora being same age as them despite the OWG timing issue with her "birthday", etc.)
(Though since we're still waiting for their said designs to be revealed I can understand waiting to add in those ages too.)
- Adventures director Kakudou since stated on Twitter the only character with a confirmed “zodiac sign” was Miyako, also despite Sora’s supposed “birthday” range. He went on to say besides Miyako,
none of the characters had / have “set birthdays”.
Despite this, the 02 ages and Taichi’s given ages since remain official, so take Kakudou’s word with a grain of salt (in regards to the confirmed ages) as well, however, it is still notable re: birthdays.
(not my post but this is the person who asked him directly on Twitter, linking to the source of Kakudou's twitter)
asker on Twitter: “Is this true?
[Link to an image with the Chosen Children and zodiac signs.]”
Kakudou: “It’s not true. The only one with a set birthday is Miyako. The other characters don’t have set birthdays.”
(emphasis / italics mine)
(auto-translated on twitter to confirm; note: "Kyoto" is what Miyako's name can translate to using google translate; the kanji for her name however is also shown.)
(It's been a while since I saw the very beginning of .tri - I actually did forget Meiko was in Mimi's class and I apologize for that, but)
"Meiko’s digivice are the same model as Taichi and party’s, and she’s also the same age as them…"
though "and party's" is mentioned, there would have been no need to mention "Taichi" "and them" if she was not the "same age" as Taichi. They could have easily used phrasing like "the same model as Taichi's and party's, and she's also the same age/grade as Koushiro and Mimi" instead of a vague "them". It's possible maybe she had a birthday that placed her as older than Koushiro & Mimi at start, too (again, despite the ages issue?) Or that all three (Meiko, Koushiro & Mimi) "age" to 17 before summer, making them all the "same age". Regardless this is the only direct statement reference for her age (not grade): "same age as [Taichi and party/them]". A reference note may work for this to clarify, as well?
Actually I do agree on Kakudou's statement re: birthdays, I meant despite not having set birthdays the ages given were still official (such as Taichi's being "17" in Tri despite the real-world system). However, the Wiki doesn't seem to have Kakudou's statement on this anywhere, so maybe it can be added in as well for clarification?
I was going to mention the new movie's ages were finally revealed, but it seems someone beat me to it and edited the profiles with the info. I'll be glad if we can finally put that issue to rest (haha, I do apologize for all the confusion/debating, though it would be nice if the profiles could reflect the actual ages/actually canon estimated "age ranges".)
- Takeru is given the age of 19, but Hikari isn't. However, the Tri article from before confirmed Hikari to be OLDER than Takeru. That would make Hikari's age range either 19 (same as Takeru) or 19-20 (a close and appropriate estimate going by the given timeline so far). I believe the fact she's stated to be older than Takeru should definitely be mentioned somewhere on her profile (if it isn't already), since people often presume the opposite (due to Takeru being a boy/taller than her, usually.)
- Takeru (19) and Jou (23)'s age gap is only about 3~4 years, with Takeru being on an "older" (for his school year) end and Jou being on a "younger" (for his "conflicting" school years' age range) end, not the 5-6 one would presume going by a real-world Japanese school system. In fact, Jou is usually given the "younger"/"conflicting" end of his year compared to ALL of the rest (i.e. Taichi+Yamato+Sora+Meiko? are 22 when they "should" be 21-going-on-22 if going by a real-world system, while Jou is only 23, which is actually semi-appropriate for him/all his previous grades. In Tri, he is 18 when they are all 17 / mentioned further below, etc.). (*edits to correct/clarify, Jou is on the "younger" end of a "conflicting" age range, i.e. if he is 18 at start and it followed a real-world system he'd be in university already, and on the "older" end going by a real-world system, instead of studying to get into one.)
- I did remember Mimi and Meiko were together a lot in Tri; G-SANtos' comment confused me a bit too. However, I had been under the impression Taichi+Meiko were in the same class; I'm glad that got confirmed (again?). (I do see how it could have been confusing though, as I had forgotten / gotten confused too, my apologies)
- Sora is (still) the exact same age as Taichi+Yamato; not "younger" at start regardless of her "canonical" birthday (which Kakudou already reconfirmed was "not set" despite OWG having happened already. This does not mean that OWG was not canon, obviously, just that Sora's "birthday" plotline was given a conflicting age range, and I definitely believe this should be mentioned on her profile to clear up the confusion.)
- Koushiro was confirmed same age as Mimi again, as well, and they are both still given the "older" end of their year (i.e. only 1 year behind Taichi+Yamato+Sora+Meiko, NOT 2 years younger.) Nearly a whole school year passes between April-December 2005 in Tri - he's very likely 17 by the end or close to it already (i.e., 16-17 is an appropriate age range, with him being 16 at start, if very briefly.) It is notable that he is always shown to be the exact same age as Mimi; never mentioned "younger" or "older" in relation to her, but along with Mimi given the "older" age range of a typical Japanese school grade regardless. If that was the case, he would definitely be 17 by December anyway. Anyone born January 1-March 31st is on the "younger" end (this is, again, despite Sora's OWG birthday). This would imply both Mimi+Koushiro's possible birthday ranges being between April 1st-December 31st - pointing out Jou's profile notes mentions a possible birthday range going by the real-world system and the canon "timeline", as does Iori's and Daisuke's (iirc), due to the complicated "timeline" and conflicting ages. I don't see why the others' couldn't mention this as well.
- For some reason Takeru's non-sequel movie ages were all changed to TBD as well?? He had canonical ages given in Adventure, 02, and Tri?
The ages for all 8 Chosen are displayed perfectly clearly on the scans, and this was PRE-Saikai, implying the start of Tri (with Taichi+Yamato+Sora being 17 at start, Mimi+Koushiro being 16, Jou being 18 - still the "younger" end - and Takeru and Hikari BOTH being "14", despite Hikari also confirmed not much later being "older than Takeru".)
(I am sorry this became so complicated, but just pointing out canonical references again in case there's still confusion with the new ages.)
"Children who have their 6th birthday [on or before April 1] enter the first grade of elementary school [of that year]."
(i.e. January 1st-April 1st = the younger end. April 2nd-December 31st = the older end)
"School year starts in April and ends in March." (this is typically late March, i.e. not long before April 1st.)
(This is basically the issue a lot of people have with Sora's birthday being in March and why the ages are so conflicting to begin with.)
It's again up to the Wiki to decide what to do with the info, but I feel a lot of it is relevant again now that the sequel movie actually does have ages and they do line up exactly with Adventure, 02, and Tri "age" "ranges" regardless of multiple opportunities they had to "fix" these "timeline" "errors".
(*Edits post to fix spacing issues - apologies, Wikia keeps messing up the formatting.)
I added the tri ages. thanks for your source. it was me who added the DATM ages. Had I been using WTW and DW at the time, I wouldve added them myself back then.
TKs ages were never actually stated for the JP version apparently, we only had info for the dub. I asked if we had sourced for TK's JP age, but apparently there was none from what was said by an admin. I asked if we could use the other characters, as well as the gaps of 3, 3, and 5 years to source all the other ages, but multiple admins said no to that, and prefer actual sources meaning theyll need to stay at TBD, for people to collect sources.
if we have soras birthday being around march, we dont really have the indication that her birthday just passed making her 17 for all of it, or if her birthday was about to come after tri. i know nothing about JP schools tho, but if tri is april to dec, she doesnt age during it.
i do think the rest age, since its a long time and some will for sure age, but we have no other birthdays, so we cant assume, for exampe, that tai goes from 17 to 18 during tri. he prob does but we dont know his BD. all 9 of them could be born between dec 26th (tri ends on crhistmas) and the start of april which would make none of them age. i guess the JP School year could be different for that but like I said, IDK the show years.
there was a picture of the part 1 DVD of tri, where it said it been three years since malo has been killed and 6 years since their first journey, and they also stated tai was 16, but the thing about that is it ignored that apparnenty tai was sourced as 10 for the dub lol. the tri age for tai actually causes the time line in the dub to no longer make sense because like the JP verison, it outright shows 2005, but then a source saying 17. its been 6 years, not 7, so tri screwed up the "dub age of 10".
i cant seem to find the source for the part 1 dvd box tho with 3/6 years+17 tai
"It's been six years since that summer adventure when Taichi Yagami and the rest of the DigiDestined crossed over to the Digital World. And nearly three years have passed since the final battle between Hikari Yagami's group and BelialVamdemon. As the peaceful days passed by, at some point the gate to the Digital World closed. But when a Kuwagamon suddenly appears in Odaiba, its rampage leaves the town in ruins and the people there in turmoil. Taichi chases after it, in an effort to halt its rampage. But there's nothing he can do against a Kuwagamon. Not by himself. And that's where a new adventure begins..."
It's been six years since the summer adventure when Tai (now in high school) and the rest of the DigiDestined crossed over to the Digital World and nearly three years since frenzied final battles between warring factions. With the gate to the Digital World closed, time continues to pass, until theadventure Digivolves once again.
RN this puts dub Tai as 16, though with the year shown as 2005, I'm not sure that can actually be possible so it might be best to put 16 or 17 and say the dubbers forgot the ages are supposed to be different in the dub
"Takeru Takaishi: "His elementary school is the same as Daisuke and the others, Odaiba Elementary School, Class 5-A." " while it does not state his age, it does state "same grade".
"Daisuke Motomiya: "A 5th grader in Odaiba Elementary School. Age 11."
"Hikari Yagami: "Age 11. [...] In elementary school, she is in the same Class 5-A as Daisuke and the others"."
Again, Hikari is noted to be (canonically) "older" than Takeru via a Tri interview, but Takeru is often shown as being exactly the same grade/age as her (likely she is only a little bit older).
Ken's age was also stated (Ken Ichijoji: "Although a 5th grader in elementary school and 11 years old [...]") it would basically make little sense for all of them to be 11 and Takeru not, unless he had a truly conflicting age or was on the younger end of a school year.
Something else I found re: Takeru, in my bookmarks:
Is this publication found in high-quality anywhere? It is terrible resolution, but if you zoom in a LOT, there is what looks suspiciously like an "11" on the first line of both Takeru's and Daisuke's info boxes.... I'm 99.99% certain these have age mentions for Takeru and Iori, and if Daisuke is 11 while this also confirms Takeru as 11, that would definitely solve part of this "mystery".
I honestly cannot tell re: Iori but I would not be surprised at all if his says "10" (despite a real-world system and the Memorial Book's "canon" age implying he would be 9 at start. It's possible Iori's is overall conflicting as well, like Sora's and Jou's).
I would also like to note Jun. Jun is noted to be "apart by 6 years in age" from Daisuke (11, "conflicting" - going by a real-world system Daisuke would be 10), however, Jun also would be on the "older" end in a real-world system, if we presume those are ages from the start and not the end of 02. If such a note was added for her, for example, she would be 16 at the start of her school year, and "apart by 6 years in age" would become "apart by [about] 6 years in age / give or take a year or so." People often have confusions about Jun's age as well due to her profile here and the conflicting timeline, making the age gap between her and Yamato (whom she chases) larger than it actually would be. It would be nice if a note on the timing issue could be added to Jun's as well, and a note to Miyako's sister Momoe's (who I believe was in the same grade as Jun?)
As for dub ages, I believe they should be noted separately from Japanese version ages. by this point they screw up most of the canonical Japanese timeline and are otherwise non-canonical to the Japanese version anyhow, as implied. The dub and "official" english publications have been wrong before, too, since they often tend to still go by the dub material.
As mentioned before too, Tri is confirmed in the final movie to take place in 2005 (ending December 2005). One doesn't really need the American dvd releases to figure out the Japanese versions' timeline, "2005" was stated right in Takeru's email iirc. We already knew when 02 took place, too. (I do hope this info helps anyhow)
tai and meiko are in the same class btw, if that still wasn't confirmed or w/e, iw atched 1-4 in dub this week so far and will see the final two in a few days in dub, and part 1 shes added to tai's class
(I don't really have many sources re: the dub ages myself other than what's already been obviously stated / referenced, my apologies! I presume a "2005" would be / was noted in the dub of the final movies' ending as well? Though I haven't seen the dub version of Tri.)
Speaking of her:
" "A: Meiko’s digivice are the same model as Taichi and party’s, and she’s also the same age as them… ” "
Again, I don't see why this statement cannot be noted on her profile, too. Regardless of personal opinions, it's a canonical source. It could be noted as a reference / note under the "TBD", even, if stating an exact range is THAT much of an issue (though I've seen many other wikias do not seem to mind including estimates if using canonical sources...). Not including it seems misleading, to me, leading people to wonder if a statement was ever made about Meiko's age (which it was referred to, right there).
""Taichi-tachi" literally refers to the eight DigiDestined. They're just saying that she's a high-schooler too." (mentioned earlier)
Does it actually translate to "Taichi-tachi" or is that just presumed? If it is actually translated to that, I understand what you're saying (I do know what -tachi implies, though I can't translate Japanese text myself), but it literally states clearly "same age as them". Again, if they wanted to NOT note Taichi, they could have just said, for example, "as Koushiro and Mimi" if she really was younger - they could have even just mentioned her age in relation to "Mimi"'s. But they specifically noted Taichi, whose class she (does) transfer into, implying them to have the same age/age range. "The eight Digidestined" would also include Takeru+Hikari + Jou, wouldn't it? And we all know they are younger/older, respectively, regardless of Jou also being in high school.
iirc, in Japanese to refer to "the Chosen Children" it's spoken as "Ebarashii Kodomo-tachi" ? This is heard multiple times throughout Adventure in Japanese. So why "Taichi-tachi" then if that's what they'd "meant" ("the eight digidestined")?
(the point I'm trying to make: Taichi-tachi = presumed Taichi and those the same age as him; Ebarashii Kodomo-tachi = 'the eight Digidestined')
It'd make little sense to leave Meiko's age range up in the air when we have a good source right there, and other conflicting ages/age ranges are noted all over even this Wikia.
(under the memorial book section, Jou's 02 age is mistakenly listed or typo'd as "13", which is incorrect. It was published as "15", this is the source for his 02 age which was used for a long time on the Wikia too.)
I thought I should let the Wikia know about the typo under the memorial book references anyhow, in case anyone else was using it as a reference (though it's easily figured out to be a typo)
If I find any other ages references, I'll let the Wikia know! I am glad if those ones found earlier are fine! I'll also search around for larger / clearer scans of that one 02 article re: Takeru's and Iori's (I can say I definitely remembered partial scans from that floating around some 10+ years ago, but not that particular page, just the header one with the full group...)
If (at least most of) the issues are resolved now, it'd still be nice if a note could be added to Jun's page as well (since 17 is technically not a canonical source for her, either; "6 years apart in age" was. 17 was just presumed; it could have easily been 16 as well, I think, with "6 years apart in age" being like an estimate, as many other such references were. Also because we don't know birthdays for any of them, either.)
Things may not be sorted since like you I'm a regular member, I'm just hella active so it'd be a Admin for the final say. They should be though, for the Tri ages anyway. Shame I wasn't here in 2015 to get those sources at the time. The age for TK in that pic is the questionable one. You could prob ask on with the will and find someone who has the pages and such they seem to be good at that. I would but I'm not allowed lol. Me and another member were barred from asking for sources since we were using them for DW and Wikimon sources and this pissed the WTW owner off for some reason. If I was the one to do it I'd get banned.
Any sources you find for anything is useful though.
"Twelve years ago, he married your real mother and they had you."
(Keeping in mind Koushiro is canonically 11 in Adventure. The japanese phrasing used is also definitely "12 years ago", if you listen by ear. this is from episode 38 of Adventure.)
"He and his wife died in a car crash when he was a baby." - this text is on Koushiro's profile re: his real parents: I'm aware this was stated in the dub, but in the Japanese version, it is not actually stated how old he was when they died? Only this reference noted is made re: the timeline. "when he was a baby" appears to be a dub-added line, unless a canonical source for the japanese version's statement can be found as well. Instead, all that is mentioned is Kae and Masami's original son died "when he was a baby".
Koushiro's father then goes on to say "then, when we were asked to take care of you, (well...)" and Koushiro's age at the time of his real parents's deaths is never stated.
Perhaps a note could be made that "when he was a baby" applies to the dub (as well) or the original son of Kae & Masami (for the Japanese version)?
(That's the only other major note I can think of for now, though)
ahhh and I understand re: WTW. If that is the case, however, I do not see why the actual japanese publications cannot be noted: i.e., the one with the Tri scans is that particular issue of the magazine Otomedia. their translations themselves do not have to be used - the official, canonical text in the article alone would be enough to note the issued publication as a reference. It'd be incredibly nice if permissions to use their translations could be gotten from them, however, I think.
Ages and grades are canonically stated at numerous points, including for the Adventure Chosen during 02, implying pretty much every Adventure Chosen and 02 Chosen to be on the older end of their school years.
(Jou is the only one where this pattern doesn't seem uniform; in Adventure he is 12, but stated 11 in novels... In 02 he's stated to be '15' but his Adventure description in the Memorial Book, linked above, doesn't state his age during Adventure either... In Tri he's 18 and not 19.)
Also, not sure if you're aware, but since Taichi is confirmed 17 exactly in Tri and 22 in Kizuna, that implies "5 years later" is when Kizuna happens, and the Anime Expo panel (video is now officially on Youtube) confirmed Kizuna is set during the summer. Tri (final film mentions "December 2005" in Takeru's email) is "3 years later" after 02 (2002). So Iori's official age would be 9 years (02) + 3 (Tri tmeline) + 5 (Kizuna), making him 17 if going by confirmed timeline points, even though official ages haven't been given for the 02 kids in Kizuna yet. However, you might want to note this somewhere, because I can see people mistaking Iori for being 16 as he is still in high school.
There's a bunch of other profile information from the Memorial Book that should be added to the wiki too or at least mentioned somewhere, preferably somewhere on profile pages. For example, Jun's profile clarifies "Daisuke's older sister, who is to become an 11th grader", implying she was only just starting 11th grade. "Apart by 6 years in age" (from Daisuke) is also mentioned but "17" wasn't specified directly in that description, possibly implying she could be 16 at the start of the series, as well.
(By the way, I asked the translator, who also translates the novels, if excerpts were all right to repost with credit and they told me "yes", so you might want to ask them or credit them somewhere for their translation as well.)
The 3rd Digimon Adventure novel had also finally been completed by them after many, many years and can be read in full here:
There is a ton of information from the 3rd novel that could be added to profiles too (backstory information, etc. as it pertains to the novels universe.) A good example is all the notes on the parents/families.
Here Koushiro's backstory information was finally revealed as well (to clarify on the issues I noted above at an earlier timeframe before this was translated):
Koushiro’s real father, who was a distant relative of Masami Izumi, was a university lecturer and genius mathematician. His wife, Koushiro’s real mother, was an assistant professor, but despite having such a promising future, they died in a car accident almost right after Koushiro was born.
Around the same time, the boy that had been born to the Izumi couple had died young from illness.
When asked if they could take Koushiro, it was Yoshie who had accepted first.
“To us, you are our real son,” she said now. “We raised you as if you were our own.”
“…Is that so.”
“We were planning to tell you when you were a bit older.”
So that partially solves the mystery of when Koushiro's parents died in the Japanese version, technically (as this isn't stated directly in Adventure's Japanese version of episode 38 itself, only the novels, which are also a different continuity...). It also contained backstory info on Koushiro's biological mother, who was never described prior to this translation. Koushiro's 02 profile from the Memorial Book also states they were planning to tell them when he was "an adult", even though here it's described as "a bit older".
other interesting timeline notes:
- in "Revenge of Diablomon", Daisuke's profile for that movie states he is "ABOUT" to "enter the new school year as a 6th grader", implying it takes place just around or before April, as the Japanese school year begins around April 1st. (I'm not sure if a specific timeline point was clarified for this movie otherwise?)
– Oikawa Yukio
— 3 years ago
— Around age 25
— In 7th grade
(this header-like information, states Oikawa was "around age 25" at some point of the series when shown younger. "7th grade" was also mentioned for his design where he's still in Junior high school, it seems.)
- Sora's 02 profile described here states that, yes, she is 14 in 02, not 13, presumed to be during her first appearance around Spring 2002. Do what you will with that information due to her conflicting birthday issue.
I was wondering if eventually I could go around and add some of these profile descriptions to profile pages of characters who lack them (such as some of the family members), so hopefully it's ok. If I mess up adding a reference, please feel free to correct it, though it'd be nice if the information wasn't outright removed if so unless there was a reason for that.
You could perhaps ask the translator? The translator is extremely reliable for their contributions to the fandom (they've translated numerous amounts of materials including books, interviews, etc.), so they can likely provide scans as needed. Unfortunately, I do not have scans of these entire books on hand.
It is a bit disconcerting if scans are needed to confirm every single piece of information from the series when it is readily available via the translators, especially as false information with no sources has been listed elsewhere on the Wiki before. I was informing of these translations as an attempt to remove false information or clarify information that wasn't previously clarified (multiple grades being listed as "TBA" for example when here they're canonically given.)
I would also like to point out I'm pretty sure the translators' translations have been referred to before. If literally anything from the novels has been referred to, this translator is the one who provided that information.
^ if you can't access the first link to the 3rd novel for some reason, as I had this issue just now despite accessing it a bit ago today.
- Takeru's Adventure profile states "2nd grader in Kawada elementary school", but no exact age, so it's understandable if that can't be mentioned here. However, his profile later states, "When Hikari, who is the same age as him, joins their group," along with the following;
- Takeru's 02 profile states "The boy who moves in Spring 2002 from Sangenjaya to an apartment in Odaiba (the same one as Inoue and Hida families). The form of Takeru three years later, since his adventures as a Chosen Child in 1999. His elementary school is the same as Daisuke and the others, Odaiba elementary school, Class 5-A." (Since there were issues referring to Takeru's info before.)
- Keeping in mind a Tri interview confirmed Hikari to be "older" than Takeru as well, this would imply them to be the same chronological age, but with Hikari slightly "older". This is also confirmed by their Tri ages being officially the same despite this; "14".
- All of these are official statements so it doesn't really make sense to say they can't be referred to at least somewhere on the Wiki.
- Hikari is confirmed 8 in Adventure so all of this information would be "official statements" pointing to Takeru being 8 as well, without it really being "speculation".
Thus, again, it doesn't really make sense to not mention this information somewhere. references and notes can give clarification on the matter by mentioning statements from any books, etc. as needed (while keeping in mind the novels are technically a separate continuity, if with numerous similarities between the two versions).
Kizuna profiles with grades information were all mentioned here. While I understand WTW has gotten annoyed about their translations being used here before, the information is available via the official website as well, in the profiles section. For grades, all you really need to know is the kanji that specifies their grade / positions in University while in Kizuna / what they're studying, etc., without having to refer to WTW's translation. The Japanese language referred to can be a reference on its own in that regard.
The same goes for the Tri grades, which were all confirmed/translated by digital scratch as well in the initial Tri interviews, I believe linked above. Since mentioning that, i've noticed some tri grades have yet to be added; even Taichi's 02 grade which is, sorry, extremely obvious, as he's in the exact same grade as Yamato and Sora (and in Tri, Meiko's in the same grade as them, as we confirmed).
Basically, the official website can easily be used as a reference for Kizuna's grades for all of the chosen (including 02 chosen), the rest of WTW's translations aside, and it doesn't really take a rocket scientist to figure out the rest + where conflicting timeline issues happen, and in those cases, those can be easily noted regardless if they conflict or not. For example, I also noticed Ryo's page mentions his conflicting timeline issues as well (he lives in Odaiba in the games/02, but Fukuoka in the Kyushu region in Tamers according to the Memorial Book).
Speaking on that, while WTW has a claim to their specific translations/phrasings, they don't have a claim to... the bulk of the Japanese references, obviously. So if Ken's profile mentions he's studying "psychology" and it's made obvious by the kanji, obviously that can be referred to. Anyone with a basic level/knowledge of Japanese can confirm/rephrase the rest.
Sorry, but as Kizuna gets closer and more and more new info gets dropped, it really doesn't make sense to withhold so much of that information from the fanbase due to "not having scans" when in many cases scans really aren't needed for this to be clarified (for example, the official website is more than enough of a reference which doesn't require the use of scans). It also makes the Wiki extremely restrictive when it comes to being able to be edited with new information, which doesn't exactly help the fanbase.
No, I can't. I have an extremely busy life. It is the responsibility of the person adding the information to provide the original, official sources for other editors to verify against. That's how wikis work.
The translator is extremely reliable for their contributions to the fandom
Just like any of us, they're not perfect, and we are specifically trying to avoid citogenesis or anything similar. We need to always refer to the original, primary sources. If the translators translation checks out and they give us permission to use it, we can provide that translation credited to them in the article, but we still need to confirm it's valid.
It is a bit disconcerting if scans are needed to confirm every single piece of information from the series when it is readily available via the translators, especially as false information with no sources has been listed elsewhere on the Wiki before.
The fandom's translations have been wrong before (very, very wrong, such as the "true enemy" in Frontier, the Child forms of the Evil Warriors, or Aldamon's weapons/attacks), and that false information on the wiki is not something the wiki wants to have, so it makes no sense to use it as an example of "what was accepted elsewhere". It wasn't accepted, the staff just haven't been able to burn it yet.
Sorry, but as Kizuna gets closer and more and more new info gets dropped, it really doesn't make sense to withhold so much of that information from the fanbase due to "not having scans" when in many cases scans really aren't needed for this to be clarified (for example, the official website is more than enough of a reference which doesn't require the use of scans).
This is not a news site. This is an encyclopedia. Everything should be sourced and vetted, and we have no obligation, whatsoever, to try to "cash in" on whatever the latest buzz is.
and it doesn't really take a rocket scientist to figure out the rest + where conflicting timeline issues happen, and in those cases, those can be easily noted regardless if they conflict or not.
It doesn't take anything because it is simply not appropriate for an encyclopedia to try to "puzzle out" things that aren't stated in canon. Our job is to note what the sources say, and leave it to the reader to pick and choose from that.
It also makes the Wiki extremely restrictive when it comes to being able to be edited with new information, which doesn't exactly help the fanbase.
That is literally exactly how an encyclopedia is supposed to be. Any additions should have sources and be vetted. That's the entire point.
If fans want breaking news that is not fully vetted, they are plenty of fansites for that. Our job is, first and foremost, to make sure our information is accurate. That means we will necessarily be posting information long after all the other fansites are done with it.
I apologize for coming off somewhat harsh here, but your posts indicate that you have a very different idea of what the site is supposed to be than the encyclopedia it is.
I didn't have time to read everything yet, but on "the translator is not perfect" note, in the Our War Game! subs, Onkeikun mistranslated Los Angeles as Russia in the part talking about Koshiro's mysterious online friend that is referenced multiple times in the franchise and never seen. (Seriously, I just want to know who this person is. TOEI PLEEZE!)
Granted, that translation was many years ago, and the term used in the movie was an abbreviation of Los Angeles, ロス. But still, that is an example. Though, I only discovered that error because of Japanese Wikipedia.
By the way, I can't access that link to third novel.
So what you are saying is "there is literally no way we can accept any CANONICALLY GIVEN (stated DIRECTLY IN THE BOOKS, OFFICIAL SOURCES, ETC.) info on the ages (even things like how the Digimon PSP chart has Hikari stating re: her and Takeru, "we're the same age!") unless you give us clear scans and /break down all of the kanji for us/ even though ... that's literally what the translators DO for this fandom.
I understand that might have been in issue with the OWG sub but if I recall correctly, that was subbed YEARS ago. Onkei's Japanese has clearly improved to the point where they're translating entire full novels, and they're the only one doing it for the fandom.
By the way, I asked Onkei on twitter, just to restate, since it seems this was missed the first time.
THEY DO allow using their translations for things like references, quotes, etc. with credit, and you don't need to ask them for that, though they appreciated when I did.
So even "the translator has to give us permission!" isn't an excuse.
Look, I'm sorry. I understand Wikia has rules but that's a little too extreme and controlling for a DIGIMON WIKIA.
I'm sure you're aware of Wikimon.net. Even they use these sources for their information.
"I have an extremely busy life". You seem to be too busy to run this Wiki then, if you can't even quickly look over translations and the official books and confirm the information for yourself?
The translators also have very busy lives. Do you know how hard it is to scan that many pages of such long books for references? They're obviously not going to do that.
Which means the burden of "proving" this info falls on me. I would have to physically buy the books and scan them myself. And then it would take my own money and TIME for ME to do.
And look, I'm sorry. Most ages are stated with their numbers clearly seen within the books. If I bought the books, they'd have THIS EXACT INFORMATION.
I'd rather save my money, but it's extremely frustrating that this Wiki can't just update the sources on the ages that they're missing on the characters' direct pages.
You even have a page for this information right here.
I'm sorry if I sound a little harsh too, but this is proving to be a constant problem for the fanbase because no one, especially those newer to the series who haven't picked up on all the timeline notes yet, can seem to understand the characters' ages at a glance. This is because most of them aren't aware of all the timeline references nor understand the school system. Fixing the ages references would help with this, but you're refusing to accept them unless you have scans, demanding the scanner take money and time out of their day to do so to provide you with these.
When a simple google search is made, THIS WIKIA COMES UP FIRST. Wikimon is usually not noticed by them. Thus, actually updating the information here would be very useful for the fanbase.
You'll realize reading upthread I first contacted about this situation in summer of 2018. It still has not been resolved, and I am losing my own patience on the matter, as you are clearly unwilling to work something out that's actually reasonable for the Wikia and this fandom.
G-SANtos, the novels are on Onkei's site, if you can search them up. It seems the wikia ruins the links somehow when they're linked.
if the novels state joe's age is different to what the anime states, that would throw the validity of the novels themselves into question for the anime's timeline. I mean, multiverse means it happened somewhere of course, but differing ages would mean it can't be canon to the anime itself and would be an alt timeline
I already answered all of this in my previous post. You are asking to add information to the wiki, therefore, you need to provide a source for your claim in order for other editors to validate it. Your ignorance of the amount of work that the editors on Digimon Wiki and Wikimon do to validate the info we post, the time, money, and effort that we spend, and the fact that neither wiki relies on fansite translations without personal verification to any degree, is your own misapprehension, not fact (to be quite to the point -- onkeikun is an editor on wikimon, meaning that she already is working directly with wikimon staff to vet what's sourced to her). I suggest rereading my previous post where I already explained why doing what you're suggesting would be extremely unprofessional
If you are going to instead throw a tantrum and accuse other editors of laziness for not doing your job for you, you are free to leave. We don't really have a use for people who refuse to validate their claims, nor throw accusations and fits at others when asked to do the bare minimum that every single encyclopedia requires.
> if the novels state joe's age is different to what the anime states, that would throw the validity of the novels themselves into question for the anime's timeline.
Marcus, this is correct. The novels are not canon to the anime. There are too many discrepancies, like Lillymon first appearing at ShogunGekomon's castle instead of the DarkTyrannomon battle.
the proof of kimeramon, bearmon and skullbaluchimon are here. I think at this point it's very obvious that there's not gonna be any more content for hacker's memory etc and since they have full models as shown here, they're removed content. they're working on survive. i mean they could put the models in to be used but i dont think they will. all dlc is done, IMO. only reason cyber sleuth got more, is because it was DLC for the western version which came a year later
how come the super forms dont count? if you choose a super form in either a second run with the same mon, or use one that shares a form then you can choose it and then when the boss fight starts, they storyline turn into it
you can see here at 1:07:47 that he talks as Wormmon and then the fight starts with him as figther mode rather than stingmon
Impmon is implied to have contributed data to X5B by way of Beelzemon, from what I'm aware.
I've not played that part of the game myself, but since it sounds like it's not quite a direct digifuse, I wouldn't put it on those charts. I would treat it as being "warp broken" by existing digifuses (basically, Shoutmon X4 + Sparrowmon + Beelzemon), and therefore no new cites needed. I'm not sure if Tamers Beelzemon would take the place of Fusion Beelzemon, though. That's a question for Lanate and G-SANtos, who have played the game.
I also completed Impmon's route in ASR. His makes no sense because he knows every character and yet the rest dont, such as when someone says they "beat up some childish red dragon guy" and another says "watch out smoe powerful red dude with a mic is in the next area" etc but on this video, you can see that impmon knows wormmon. he knows agumon but not gabumon, know gatomons and Dorululmon. The video shows at 23:30 the virus taking over dorulumon and I guess copying his data . he then says he hates shoutmon's singing. at 33:30 it has the virus take over shoutmon and say he's taken data from both dorulumon and impmon (so beelzemon) then gatomon at 34:20 states the virus had him beat up the two of them so that it could get a copy of impmons/shoutmon/dorulumons data
35:33 has impmon state that shoutmon (so the storyline shoutmon) was forced digifused with the data copied from dorulumon and impmon to form x5b so it seems to be saying shoutmon himself is one of the legendary digimon. SO in that instance it seems to be vanilla shoutmon digifused with the data of impmon (beelzemon) and druluomon (X4) to form X5b. 35:41 though has impmon state he's gonna save both shoutmon and dorulumon and that "you too doruluomon? im gonna save you both!" so impmon seems to imply that the normal dorulumon and shoutmon were used and fused with impmons data, which makes sense since they were both being mind controlled.
in the dorulumon one, he doesn't know the adventue chracters gabumon, gomamon, wormmon, gatomon, veemon (Even tho impmon did), doesnt know guilmon. 44:54 shows that he know impmon though. impmon then tells dorulumon that shoutmon was being possessed. the after battle this time then has impmon possessed and outright states "I HAVE YOUR... COPY... AND DIGIMON KING... AND BEELZEMON... at 48:55 (so it's saying that the data it copied from impmon was specifically Beelzemon) 58:15 then has dorulumon state that shoutmon has "fused with the other digimon data" to become X5B. so in both these stories, shoutmon himself is the legendary digimon and then shoutmon himself gives dorulumon and impmon the power to turn into a x5b of their own, so this seems to state there's three X5B. the storyline one from the real shoutmon, then the two from impmon and dorulumon as theyre given the power.
shoutmon states that he was copied and then fused with another digimon for the XD, so he's technically fighting himself. after beating veemon at 48:00 it possess veemon and says hes got shoutmon's data. so all three of these routes actually has shoutmon as the legendary digimon and the X5B and DX are just clones of shoutmon fused with other data (with beelzemon coming from impmon mentioned). it seems like the virus made clones and fused them together.
her's shoutmons. the weird is that it means that the shoutmon DX clone give his original self the power to turn into DX
so it seems to be that in impmons it possessed shoutmon and dourlumon (or just shoutmon and impmon is assuming at the end that it's dorulumon nd not a cloned dorulumon) and digifues them with a cloned beelzemon, in dourlumons it's shoutmon and clones of dorulumon and beelzemon, whilst in shoutmons its shoutmon and... I Guesss a zekegreymon from... somewhere. so the "ASR" X5B and DX "don't exist" as they're clones made from shoutmon, who is one of the legendry digimon
the timelines also seem slightly different as in douroulumons shoutmn is already king but in shoutmons, gomamon states "no wonder youre the future king"
so yeah, based on watching these three stories on YT (and the videos are there for you too to skip through like I did for the talking segements), it clones itself a OG beelzemon for X5B and then digifuses it.
so rather than X4+beelzemon, it seems to be shoutmon+x4 or dorulumon clone+beelzemon clone = x5b as well as shoutmon clone+???? = DX
I have one more question on ASR. do we count neutral as free? the game has data, virus, vaccine and neutral (Which is the same in next order, but next order has it as "free"). there's no japanese game as comparison for ASR but "nuetral" is used for free here. if it's the case, then that adds a few new "free" digimon, such as the shoutmon forms, luminamon and a few others from the card list (and the armour forms are in this nuetral too). the only "mistake" seems to be having exveemon has a data type, with veemon, womrmong, stingmon and FM as "neutral".
I ask, as NO has "nuetral" too, expect in this case the japanese version is "Free"
yeah, NO japan uses Free whilst NO dub uses neutral, whilst ASR uses neutral as the "not vaccine, data, virus" (prob the same translation team, which seems differnet to those who did the story games). i figure the anime staff did ASR and next order due to the dubs
Neutral - Next Order, ASR
Free - Cyber Sleuth, HM
what about the other stuff based on the three videos?
Lanate or G-SANtos, who have completed those games, would have to answer. My understanding is that the Shoutmon X5B entity is some sort of doppelganger of Fusion Shoutmon (via spiritual projection, cloning, or other), and that the plot specifies that it is formed from data including Dorulumon and Beelzemon (which would imply the evolution Shoutmon + Dorulumon + Beelzemon + a constant > Shoutmon X5B).
I provided the videos so you could see yourself (as its all the content of the game. you can skip through to the talking parts as most of it is the fighting) but in impmon and dorulumons, shoutmon himself is merged with the clones/data/whatever, whilst in shoutmon's, a shoutmon clone merges with something to create DX. so shoutmon is a legendary digimon in this game it seems. impmon and dorulumon both state that its shoutmon himself that youre fighting from the virus, whilst impmon states that it's both shoutmon and dorulumon and he plans to save them both and that "his copy" is part of it.
so it's shoutmo+dourlumon+clone for X5B (though I;m more inclinde to say it's a dorulumon clone than dorulumon himself and that impmon assumed at the end), shoutmon+dorulumon clone and beelzemon clone and then shoutmon+something for DX
not sure what the contsant is, unless youre meaning the virus
Virus: "Dorulumon... Digimon King... And you, Impmon... I have your copy..." (maybe he's only specifying he has Impmon's copy and hasn't copied the other two?)
Gatomon: "The virus used you to defeat Shoutmon and Dorulumon. In the course of the battles, the virus also made a copy of your data."
Impmon: "What the? all the Digimon data was Digifused into Shoutmon? even mine! (not sure if we should trust Impmon here and that it actually fused it into the real Shoutmon? if we take his word for it, it did)
Impmon: "Heh. Boy, Shoutmon you've seen better days. And you too, eh, Dorulumon, ya sad sack? Well, fret not! Impmon is here to save your sorry behinds!" (now he's also saying Dorulumon is involved as well. It does seems like it's likely that the X5B Impmon fights here is both Shoutmon and Dorulumon fused with Beelzemon data)
Dorulumon: "Shoutmon may give me a headache from time to time, but he's my friend! How dare you toy with him like this! I'm driving you out of him!" (now Dorulumon is REALLY sure that it's his BFF being possessed and fused with the three copies, so Shoutmon+Shoutmon+Dorulumon+Beelzemon = X5B)
We actually don't need anyone else for X5B (other than a Sparrowmon maybe but this wouldn't be the first time in ASR parts came from no where because we have enough components).
Remember that in ASR Dorulumon, for some reason, can DigiFuse (which he states he's doing, rather than Digivolve) into X4 with no one else around. He just casually can turn into X4 whenever he wants. So that's four components, which includes the missing components for Ballistamon and the Starmon Sword. Why Dorulumon can do this is anyone's question. Maybe he killed and absorbed his friends cuz he was bored one day (I'm joking) but still, Dorulumon -> X4 is treated as a natural form for our dog boy.
In treating it then for Impmon's story as Shoutmon+Shoutmon X4+OG Beelzemon (I wouldn't say it "converts into 2010 data), just that regular Beelzemon can be used instead. Plus, we now have multiple instances of Reapmon -> OG Beelzemon so they can be treated as one in the same. So I think that covers X5B for Impmon's story. Real Shoutmon+Real Dorulumon (with him as X4 when the virus forces the fusion) and then it throws in the Beelzemon clone it made (as the DX part shows that the "copy" means it clones you). Dorulumon's natural X4 shows we don't need to have a Sparrowmon, regular Shoutmon took her place as the 5th unit.
Dorulumon's story is then almost the same, except it puts a clone of X4 and a clone of Beelzemon into the real Shoutmon, to once agian be the five components. (Although it's six I guess, since the Beelzemon technically adds to X5B. I never did understand why X5B doesn't count as X6 lmao)
So Shoutmon DX is the only outliner. I think assuming Veemon - Greymon 2010 is too much headcanoning. Maybe ExVeemon as a blue Champion dragon? but still, I'd just maybe treat it as Shoutmon having the ability to naturally be DX. He can do it once the power is given to him and ASR already has Dorulumon able to "Digifuse" on his own. Shoutmon DOES states his data was digifused with... something. But we can't just assume what it is, so we'll just have to have it as Shoutmon clone + ????. X5B is sorted IMO though. Dorulumon ate his friends and can digivolve naturally.
"We actually don't need anyone else for X5B" -- the plot doesn't seem to explicitly say no other data is included, so we assume that, as per the species profile, the normal bits are included. Same with Dorulumon.
We don't need to add any cites for the others. We can just say "+ unknown data", which would be filled in by the evolutions that happened in Fusion.
This seems to just state that it's "five Digimon coming together". Now whilst Google Translate can't be 100% trusted, even that doesn't mention the other Digimon for X5B specifically.
""Tenshin Buddhist form" that Berzebumon gave power even more to Shoutmon × 5 which five Digimon embodied. A large firepower of Beelzebomon is added to the full power of Shoutmon × 5 which boasts the Musou in the ground and in the air, and the total battle power has jumped several times. Bursting crusher ripped, enemies launched with meteor impact, continuous striking technique that pierces the finish with chaos flare "burst dash stream" battle enemies angrily with great enemy without putting haircut by three-step wave attack. Tenshi runs through the sky and becomes a comet and any enemies rush with god speed, that power to praise is exactly like a buddhist used from heaven to destroy demons."
"Finalist form" where five Digimon brought together with heart together. "Victory form", which is mainly at battle on the ground, is the figure which ultimately powered up with the flying ability acquired. "Meteobaster attack" which runs to the stratosphere by itself and becomes a meteorite and hits the enemy, not only the enemy, but also a large crater of hundreds of meters around the earth are carved into the ground. In addition, "Meteor Impact" which accumulates all energy in arms and is launched while knocking down enemies from near distance is a special technique to securely detain the opponent."
Neither of these states which specific Digimon are used to create it, just that five came to together for X5 and then that a Beelzemon is thrown in for X5B. So I think Shoutmon+X4+Beelzemon works fine. There's plenty of times where say, an Omnimon is made from something other than WarGreymon and MetalGarururmon and Omnimon's profile specifically states its from those two. For X5B, Impmons states his two friends are in there (Shoutmon. X4) and then that his data was thrown in (Beelzemon).
Our X5 and X5B pages are stating each form shown in the anime in their page... but the DRB doesn't use those names at all in their profiles, so it's just saying "any five digimon can cause this guy".
Fair enough on "unknown data", though I would only count that for DX.
I Do think it means we should ceate a Digifuse page for OG Beelzemon for this info.
"but the DRB doesn't use those names at all in their profiles"
Because we're going off of more than one profile. This is why Beelzemon's article mentions Vulcanusmon, although its own DRB profile does not.
The official profile for X5B says "X5 + Beelzemon". The Asahi profile for X5 says "X4 + Sparrowmon". The Asahi profile for X4 lists all four Digimon.
"So I think Shoutmon+X4+Beelzemon works fine. "
From the scenes you showed me, I'm not seeing anywhere where it says "Shoutmon + Shoutmon X4". I'm seeing the script saying that the creature includes Shoutmon/Shoutmon's data, Dorulumon/Dorulumon's data, and Impmon's data. That does not rule out additional data.
In one story it states "Impmon's data", then in another it states "Beelzemon data", so I figure it used Beelzemon data in both. Since it's using the digivolved data of Impmon, it could for Dorulumon too and I think that does make sense since his X4 covers everything other than Sparrowmon.
They also state that Shoutmon'/Dorulumons data has been taken, only for Impmon, Dorulumon and Magnadramon (maybe they're assuming but we should probably take their word for it) to state it's the real Shoutmon (and Impmon says it's the real Dorulumon). Saying it's X4 is slightly assuming but it does at least cover for Ballista and the Star Sword. Taking the data of Impmon/Dorulumon/Shoutmon might just also take the data for every form they've been, which then includes X4, DX etc. Shoutmon is stated to already be king a few times, which means he has been each of those forms a few times in the past.
The main thing I'm going at from all this though is to have a new Digifuse page for OG Beelzemon, included in for X5B. "Converting" is assuming a little too much, so it's just showing OG Beelzemon is an acceptable stand in for 2010. I'm thinking maybe we should count two X5B and DX as well, due to the clones being their own separate form after being beaten up. (whilst still techincally being Fusion Shoutmon/Dorulumon but also Tamers Beelzemon), but as clones.
"Since it's using the digivolved data of Impmon, it could for Dorulumon too and I think that does make sense since his X4 covers everything other than Sparrowmon."
Dorulumon > Shoutmon X4 isn't a strict digivolution like Impmon > Beelzemon, and it wouldn't make sense to have Shoutmon + Shoutmon X4, especially if Shoutmon X4 isn't explicitly stated. We can equate Impmon's data = Beelzemon because other parts of the script specify it as Beelzemon's data.
"The main thing I'm going at from all this though is to have a new Digifuse page for OG Beelzemon, included in for X5B."
I'm okay with that, but it would just say Shoutmon + Ballistamon + Dorulumon + Starmons + Sparrowmon + Beelzemon. The components of X5B are fairly explicit in the species profiles, and from the quotes you've provided, ASR does not specify that Shoutmon + Dorulumon + Beelzemon is the entirety of the data used.
"I'm thinking maybe we should count two X5B and DX as well, due to the clones being their own separate form after being beaten up."
The quotes you provided indicate that X5B is always a possessed Shoutmon, so it would just go on his Fusion page in the same section. For DX, that would be a separate portion of the ASR character page, talking about it as a clone of (Omni)Shoutmon and other data.
"and it wouldn't make sense to have Shoutmon + Shoutmon X4"
Whilst true, Shoutmon vs X4 already happens due to Shoutmon vs Dorulumon fighting being canon in both Shoutmon and Dorulumon's stories. I suppose technically Dorulumon could choose to never Digifuse - however when the real Shoutmon shows up and is possessed as X5B, Dorulumon casually turns into X4 anyway, meaning the canon fight there is X4 vs X5B. So Dorulumon fights Shoutmon twice in his story. Once as X4 vs Shout/Omni and then once as X5 vs X5B.
Yeah true, I was thinking of it as that since Shoutmon is X5B at that point (but so is Dorulumon according to Impmon) and then gives the power to him to be one too but then I remembered you said that doesn't count, as it's not natural evolution etc.
Fair enough on if all those other forms, even if not stated, count. I'll just make a Beelzemon page Digifuse (which I assume means to edit it for everyone else too, such as Shoutmon and Sprrowmon etc, with the reference being ASR)
Should we count the DX not as "Shoutmon DX (Fusion)" but as "Shoutmon DX (ASR)", then? it's a clone of Fusion Shoutmon but it's not the original one, as that's the one that beats it up. The clone does give his original self the power to become DX himself but you stated before that doesn't count as canon, meaning we couldn't treat the unlocked version properly as "DX fusion", character wise at least.
and looks like I might add a section onto Shoutmon, Impmon and Dorulumon's pages about how they were possessed and cloned etc for ASR under fiction?
I wans't sure wheter we should count it or not (there seems to be no confirmation on if it's a new mon, or just a dressed up Terriermon) but Wikimon seem to be counting as a new form. IDK if we should dot he same? it's just Bandai using a dressed up Terriermon alongside Agumon Expert to talk about the V-Pets
If it's an official bandai image from an official bandai source (ex. the twitter or digimon.net site), you can just copy/paste the licensing used on file:agumon b.jpg. Dracomon has an example of how the info could be cited for the design section.
The image you provided does already have cropping done, it's just shaped cropping. Since we wouldn't be touching any actual portion of the required Terriermon image, we could crop that out. However, if wikimon's already done that, we have a wikimon template for when we borrow their images. It would be good to ask the editor on wikimon for permission to use, first.
not sure what you mean. on the Agumon (Adventure), it doesnt say a time period, it just says you choose him or veemon and then that changes who you fight, Patamons just says ryo can recruit patamon, gabumon has nothing etc
if you mean a "timeline", I guess it'd be after fusion for the impmon/dorulumon route (as shoutmon is mentioned as digiking) but before for shoutmons (as he wants to be digi king). shoutmons is harder to put a time placement on
I don't think ASR really specifies a timeline other than "after a long time of peace". The logical place seems to be after the defeat of Bagramon but before Hunters due to Shoutmon wanting to be king still (though a few stories mentioned he already king though with his original appearance I guess he JUST became it), whilst DX exists but then you'd question why the virus made X5B and not X7/7F. Still, with no Mikey running around and there having been "peace for a long time", that seems the most likely time placement.
though even then, with Tamers and Adventure characters running around it might not be counted for Fusion I suppose. I merely put it onto this page because that's where "shoutmon x5b fusion" and "DX" link to, since the real shoutmon turns into x5b and sorta DX too with the clone/given the power
So, we have two options. If it fits cleanly into the anime continuity, we can cover it in that section. If it's a split timeline/sidestory thing (as it appears to be), it would go in a separate section as with Brave Tamer, or would be covered as something similar to "in Digimon All-Star Rumble, ...." like with the Brave Tamer Megas.
Point is, it's jarring to just suddenly start talking about these separate events out of the blue. We need to find some way of leading into it and describing its relation to the prior text.
That's the closest I can currently find to what I'm trying to describe -- it looks like the other ones I remember were rewritten to not differentiate them from the primary continuity.
From what I remember of Digimon ASR, it's basically a separate crossover continuity using close expies of the existing characters. Shoutmon still wants to be Digimon King, but it doesn't cleanly fit with the actual Fusion setting. Therefore, I'd just cover that section as "in Digimon All-Star Rumble" and then dive into it.
Also, the sections you've added are still really big and going into way more detail than is needed -- it kind of overwhelms the reader. I can try to take a crack at it if you need, but I generally have a very large backlog and it can take me literal years to get to rewriting something.
Can you try to rewrite the sections, avoiding script regurgitation (you give a lot of exact quotes, for example), and trying to summarize it as you would to a friend who you're catching them up on the episode? If you're unclear what I mean, I'll try to attack Impmon's article to illustrate.
Not only are there no articles online backing that up, but Showtime is owned by CBS, Cartoon Network is owned by TBS, and Digimon is (in America) owned by Saban, which is currently working with Nickelodeon (Viacom).
Bare in mind that Saban reportedly sold their licences and IPs to Hasbro, most notably Power Rangers which Bandai had the toys rights for since Mighty Morphin, so we don't know if Digimon's license was among the inventory sold.