Talk: General guidelines

Starting out[]

As noted on Talk:Main Page, this is a basic start for our general guidelines. It's not complete yet, but at least it's something. -- Ned Scott 23:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Naming[]

Okay, centralized location. Please verify the below and revise your votes as needed.

Previous discussions

Talk:Babydmon (March 2011)
Talk:Marsmon (August 2015)
Talk:Omnimon Zwart (February 2016)
Talk:MedievalGallantmon (February 2016)
Talk:Omnimon (February 2017)
Talk:SnowGoblimon (March 2017)

Example

Original policy would give us Marusumon (current tentative support by all mods)
"Most common localization" policy would give us Marsmon (supported: Kryten, Lanate)
"Most common localization + Consideration Towards Consistent Trend in New Localizations Amendment" policy would give us Marsmon (supported: Chimera-gui)
"Most common localization + Inertia (Only override name when a localization is used in a strictly greater number of works than current name)" policy would give us Marsmon (supported: Lanate)
"First localization ever" policy would give us Marsmon
"Latest localization ever" policy would give us ???
Original policy + One-off Gibberish Exclusionary Policy Amendment would give us Marsmon (supported: Kryten, Lanate, Chimera-gui, G-SANtos)
Original policy + Fusion and Cyber Sleuth Medals Don't Count Unless They Have To Amendment would give us Marsmon (supported: Kryten)

Names in question

Daemon/Demon/Creepymon
Devimon/Darkmon
Monzaemon/Teddymon
Zhuqiamon/Xuanwumon/Ebonwumon
MedievalDukemon/MedicalGallantmon
Babydmon/Bebydomon
Wendigomon/Wendimon/Endigomon
Phelesmon/Feresmon
SnowGoburimon/SnowGoblimon
Yggdrasill/King Drasil
Bastemon/Persiamon/Beastmon
Chaosdramon/Chaosdromon
Volcdramon/Volcdoramon
- Volcdoramon is due to Reference Book so I don't think it counts, unless the "DRB romanization overrules all" rule is also up for discussion
  - Heroes.
    - I'll take it back then. Lanate (talk) 02:30, August 4, 2017 (UTC)
Mermaidmon/Mermaimon
Volcanomon/Volcamon
AncientVolcanomon/Volcanomon/AncientVolcamon
PileVolcanomon/PileVolcamon
Apocalymon/Apokarimon
Arukadhimon/Arkadimon/Arcadiamon
Bearmon/Kumamon
Blimpmon/Brimpmon
Crusadermon/LoadKnightmon/LordKnightmon
DotFalcomon/Dfalcomon
Lucemon Shadowlord Mode/Lucemon Wild 2nd Mode/Lucemon Satan Mode
KaratukiNumemon/KaratsukiNumemon/ShellNumemon
Ophanimon Falldown Mode/Ophanimon Chaos Mode
Omegamon Zwart Defeat/Omnimon Zwart Defeat
Omegamon Alter-S/Omnimon Alter-S
Feel free to add more unsavory options

Outcomes[]

Original policy

Daemon
Devimon
Monzaemon
Zhuqiaomon is a bird
Ebonwumon is a turtle
MedicalDukemon
Marusumon
Wendigomon
Babydmon
King Drasil

Earliest localization ever

??
Darkmon
Teddymon
??
??
Marsmon
Endigomon
??
Yggdrasill

. . .

Discussion/votes[]

Okay, what just happened with HiAndromon is why I am not okay with any "latest localization" policy that doesn't have some caveat. From a maintenance standpoint, it's a complete nightmare, especially since we use whatever the current page name is across the wiki; repeated name changes end up either requiring monumental cleanup or inconsistencies across the board. Lanate (talk) 01:53, August 9, 2017 (UTC)

We are trying to make sure that the wikia is as accurate as possible and that means using the newest names barring idiotic ones. That requires more work yes, but that's part of the job and we should not be afraid to move pages when necessary. Chimera-gui (talk) 05:59, August 9, 2017 (UTC)

Well, that's for the current conception of "accurate". As long as we're consistent, accurate could also mean "name most well-known to fandom", or even say fuck it all and go with the Japanese names for the species, in-medium names for the characters.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 15:52, August 9, 2017 (UTC)

Fair point but even then, we'd still have to rename pages and files accordingly no matter what which is the point I'm trying to get across. Chimera-gui (talk) 16:37, August 9, 2017 (UTC)

I prefer naming rules that have more inertia than not simply because it is not only annoying but also confusing to repeatedly move primary pages. Lanate (talk) 02:43, August 10, 2017 (UTC)

Okay, I don't remember when I supported "first localization ever", and I'm too lazy to reread all these discussions now, but I'll change my vote to "whatever doesn't give us Darkmon and Teddymon", because I'm sure these are the One True Great Cringe that nobody here wants. Anime... PAAWAA!!! 21:57, August 10, 2017 (UTC)

It looks like we all support the original policy plus a one-off exclusionary amendment. How do we want to go about that one? I'm learning toward this: We can ignore a spelling that's used only once as long as a valid dub name otherwise exists for it. If that spelling is used more than once, we have to seriously consider it. Like the following:

We can ignore Marusumon (Digimon Fusion) in favor of Marsmon (Digimon World 3).
We can't ignore King Drasil because it's used in Digimon Data Squad and Cyber Sleuth.

Any comment, objections, concerns? Lanate (talk) 02:02, September 6, 2017 (UTC)

I can agree with that but to your earlier comment about want name inertia I ask how long should this inertia be?

I do understand why there'd be hesitance to renaming a page in light of that incident but if like in the case of HighAndromon there is no obvious objection (since the meaning is still the same and in fact clearer), there is very little reason to not change what name we use beyond inertia.

The problems you and Kryten voiced, while concerns, were/are always going to happen regardless of our policies as Appli Monsters has made abundantly clear. It's unfortunate yes but that's the nature of the beast and barring a policy change within Bandai itself, that's not to change anytime soon.

As someone on tumblr rightly noted, Pokémon is described as Apollonian while Digimon is raw, unabashed Dionysian in nature: here

My mention of inertia ties into the use of most common dubbed name. We'd only move a page if the name we're moving it to has been used in strictly more cases than the current. Like, if the current page is HiAndromon and HiAndromon has been used in 5 pieces of media, we'd only move to HighAndromon if HighAndromon has been used in 6 pieces of media. That it has to be strictly more means inertia. Lanate (talk) 03:09, September 7, 2017 (UTC)

Sound good in theory but I have some reservations given that there are Digimon that rarely appear in media to begin with. Chimera-gui (talk) 06:04, September 7, 2017 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on those reservations? I mean, well, we already have a host of Digimon who only appear in a piece of single localized media. Lanate (talk) 01:35, September 8, 2017 (UTC)

The big reservation I have is that so few Digimon games get released outside of Japan in the first place, there's really not much point to having inertia especially when it runs counter to our actual policy (Example if an anime dub uses HighAndromon, we would have to use it according to the rules since there is no reason to not do so beyond inertia).

There is also the issue of Beastmon whose Japanese name is used Cyber Sleuth as well as Heroes, presumably Masters, and I'm almost certain was being used outside of DW3 at the time as well meaning that had Fusion not been dubbed, we'd likely be using Bastemon because that's the policy. Chimera-gui (talk) 04:53, September 8, 2017 (UTC)

We still have our inertia, and I think I'd rather have stability over the newest flavor of the month. And I totally would have supported using Bastemon if Bastemon proved to be the most common dubbed name. Lanate (talk) 03:14, September 9, 2017 (UTC)

That's just it though: We're not using the most common names, we've only agreed to implement an exclusionary amendment for objectionable names, something I support only as long as it's not being misused.

Beastmon is a borderline case and Laylamon, while technically one-off as well, isn't bad enough to warrant exclusion do to Layla having the same etymological root as Lilith and having a story linked to it that lines up with Laylamon as a character.

In fact hilariously enough, the name was unquestioningly accepted to the point that Kryten actually forgot to include it on the list of discussions and his only complaint at the time was exactly what you're arguing about, name inertia solely for its own sake, and even then he pointed out that any exceptions are going to be arbitrary by-definition and thus should be avoided whenever possible.

And while there have been subsequent issues since then, his arguments at the time are still completely valid now hence why I've been extremely careful about having a clear cut logic behind my own shared name amendment, eliminating redundancies in the Other Names section, and applying it both ways. Chimera-gui (talk) 04:21, September 9, 2017 (UTC)

I think we're talking past each other. In this vote section, I've only been arguing an inertia clause in context of a "Most common localization" rule. Unless you're referring to the inertia inherent in our current policy? Lanate (talk) 02:56, September 13, 2017 (UTC)

I was and fair enough. I'm just worried about the potential for abuse of such a clause. This is especially concerning do to the prominence of fan localisations following the logic of past dubs, FlameWizardmon and SnowGoblimon being two notable ones prior to Cyber Sleuth and Next 0rder respectively as well as MedievalGallantmon, which coupled with the lack of official media and more problematically a lack consistent localisation within the media we do have muddy the water on determining common localisation considerably. Chimera-gui (talk) 03:34, September 13, 2017 (UTC)

To ask my own question, how do we handle names use by both English and Japanese media now? Heroes has exposed a pretty big flaw with the current system of listing names thanks to its case and spelling shenanigans that honestly rival Fusion in my opinion which we are going to have to review in detail.

The best solution I've figured out is to institute a rule stating that primary names should not be listed in the Other Names section because they happen to appear in both English and Japanese media. Omegamon for example should not be listed because of Heroes and Next 0rder. What are your thoughts on this? Chimera-gui (talk) 03:38, September 6, 2017 (UTC)

I can get behind that. If it's considered a primary name, we usually go "Japanese and some American English" or something like that now, anyway. Lanate (talk) 03:09, September 7, 2017 (UTC)

Okay, did a quick sweep of any and all primary names in the Other Names section: RedVegimon, UlforceV-dramon, PaunChessmon Black, PaunChessmon White, AtlurKabuterimon Blue, BlackWereGarurumon, MetalGreymon Virus Species, AncientWisemon, and Algomon Ultimate have been kept as they're just different enough from the primary names.

AeroV-dramon and AeroVdramon, Metal Tyranomon, Ancientvolcanomon, Beowolfmon, Flarelizamon, Doruguremon, MachineDramon, Death-X-Dorugoramon,Death-X-Doruguremon, Death-X-Dorugamon, Cannonbeemon, AtlurKabuterimon for MegaKabuterimon (Red), Deathmon for Ghoulmon (Black), and anything used in the Digimon Frontier manhua are going to need review.

I've also elected to treat "Lucemon" for Lucemon Chaos Mode and "Lowemon" as simultaneously Japanese/English names. Chimera-gui (talk) 06:04, September 7, 2017 (UTC)

On the subject of Other Names, I thought that if it had a section under Etymologies, it doesn't need an Other Names parameter for redundancy reasons. Lanate (talk) 00:33, September 9, 2017 (UTC)

I would think so as well but unfortunately G-SANtos did not agree with that assessment: here

This is why I wanted his and Kryten's opinions on this matter and why I list names used in the Digimon Frontier manhua under need for review, even when they fall under usage of the original Japanese name in localized media such as with Kazemon and Grumblemon. Chimera-gui (talk) 01:00, September 9, 2017 (UTC)

Heroes[]

Since it's a known fact that Heroes uses the Japanese names, would anyone be opposed to just treating them as simultaneously Japanese/English names and only include them in the Other Names section if they differ from the official DRB romanizations? (e.g. the Gizumon line, and AncientWisemon, Sakuyamon (Miko)) Chimera-gui (talk) 14:13, August 8, 2017 (UTC)

I'd support that. Lanate (talk) 02:46, August 10, 2017 (UTC)

Okay, I'd like Kryten and G-SANtos' thoughts on this as well. Chimera-gui (talk) 06:36, August 10, 2017 (UTC)

Do we have a list somewhere?Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 15:44, August 10, 2017 (UTC)

Also, can we move this to the central discussion page? My mind's frazzled enough as it is and having this discussion on multiple fronts over the course of years leaves me in a permanent state of confusion.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 15:44, August 10, 2017 (UTC)

Unfortuantely, I don't have a central list as it was Charles who was adding them though you can look at his list of contributions to get an idea of why I brought this up. Chimera-gui (talk) 16:51, August 10, 2017 (UTC)

I was using the wiki of Heroes! as the main source, so I can try to make a full compilation if necessary.

On the other hand, as for the discussion itself, I honestly wouldn't know what to say. Of course they seem to do a literal translation of the names more than a dubbing, but on the other hand, there are some odd choices like SaintGargomon or PaunChessmon, and other inconsistencies like V-dramon and AeroVdramon.--Charles.929 (talk) 20:56, August 10, 2017 (UTC)

PaunChessmon is the Official romanization used by the DRB for both variants. As I said before, names that are different from the DRB romanizations should be listed for the sake of completion but repeats should be treated as the romanization.

This is compounded by the fact that Heroes has an issue with letter case like the DRB which needs to be compensated for. Chimera-gui (talk) 22:28, August 10, 2017 (UTC)

For why I'm suggesting this, the Etymology section for each species' page can handle this burden by adding "and used in Japanese and some American English media." to the Japanese name.

As an aside, Digimon Heroes!/Collection has a list of all names at launch. Lanate (talk) 02:11, August 11, 2017 (UTC)

That list is going to need updating to line up with what's been released since. Chimera-gui (talk) 03:35, August 11, 2017 (UTC)

This is not what I understood myself to be agreeing to. I thought we were saying that the English names that were identical to the Japanese names would not be included, not vice versa.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 02:35, September 13, 2017 (UTC)

I had said that but when I noticed the reverse had happened as well, I decided that this should go both ways and be a more general policy rather than exclusively about Heroes. Chimera-gui (talk) 02:47, September 13, 2017 (UTC)

I get that but I don't agree with that as the policy. To me that suggests crossflow when things seem to more be in one direction.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 22:22, September 21, 2017 (UTC)

Except we know that the crossflow isn't exclusively one direction, Calumon and KaratsukiNumemon may be the ones at the center of this but they are hardly the only instances of Japanese media sharing a name with western media:

Omnimon has been used in Japanese media
Agunimon has been used in Japanese media
Lowemon spelled with a single "e" and no "u" appears in both Japanese and western media
Imperialdramon's Fighter and Paladin Modes have omitted the colon in their names on Japanese cards
Lucemon Larva has omitted the colon in its name on a Japanese card

This is why I cannot agree with the "regardless of localized names" part of you proposal. That is just going to create more problems if any other romanizations that happen to be the western names appear and I do not want this particular issue to crop up again, especially because of a clause that is completely arbitrary in my honest opinion. Chimera-gui (talk) 00:27, September 22, 2017 (UTC)

I don't see how this is a problem that demands treatment. The English name in the infobox is, by default, open to frequent change. The Japanese name in the infobox is supposed to be presented as more firm, and a separate entity. Covering every alternate name, even if it includes a name that matches the current English localized name, provides our readers with more comprehensive information.

At the end of the day, I want our readers to be able to identify a full list of the official names for a creature from the Japanese franchise. I don't see how omitting a single entry does that.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 17:16, September 22, 2017 (UTC)

Kryten you know as well as I do that dub names do not change that frequently. We have had dub names be in place for decades with some still in place to this day (e.g. Centarumon). The mass name changes was a very recent thing and is not enough to justify this for me.

Say if we adopted Omegamon as the official English name, we would simply move the name Omnimon under the Other Names section like we did with Persiamon but until that time comes, we do not need it listed there since it's still the current English name.

You simply do not need redundancy for readers to have a full list of the official names and in fact the arbitrary redundancy here is completely wasteful. Chimera-gui (talk) 21:23, September 22, 2017 (UTC)

Aegiochusmon: Holly invalidates the prior assumption that Heroes names are just the Japanese romanizations, so we have to reevaluate based on that. For my part, I'm still supporting the original policy of "first anime dub name, then first other dub name", and any treatment of "most common name" would *have* to distinguish between different works in the same setting (i.e. Fusion the anime is separate from Fusion Fighters the mobile app, or the card game, or Super Digica Taisen).Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 16:10, April 24, 2018 (UTC)

Except anime the only time we use first dub name, everyone else uses latest name:

*First American-localization name given in anime.
*Latest American-localization name given in manga or video games.
*Latest American-localization name given in other media.
*Latest other English-language name given in any media.
*Latest English spelling given in [[Digimon Reference Book]]
*Latest English spelling given elsewhere on [[Digimon Web]]
*Latest English spelling given elsewhere in Japanese publications
*Estimated English spelling based on Japanese spelling of name.

In fact I'm certain G-SANtos has pointed this out before. Chimera-gui (talk) 16:44, April 24, 2018 (UTC)

That may very well be how things have practically turned out due to lax enforcement over multiple talk pages. I'm saying the policy I support, which is that for dub names, I'd prefer to use first names, due to the name over the franchise not having any kind of real stability in the West, and I don't want article titles changing all the time.

Whatever our policy ends up being for alternate names, I think we need to specify what we mean by "some", either in the visible text or as a comment. We have too much citogenesis in the past of this wiki, we need to be making every effort to prevent it.

Also, we still need to distinguish Heroes! from being treated as "Japanese romanized names", and we need to make sure we're distinguishing stuff like the Fusion-themed media from each other.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 17:14, April 26, 2018 (UTC)

The problem is that first name across the board will leave us with Goblimon and SnowGoburimon and I am utter against that since I want name consistency for subspecies do to the fact that, as I mentioned previously, there is a higher level of stability when it comes to dub names than you seem to think.

Additionally, one single outlier does not negate the fact that the majority of the names in Heroes are in fact the Japanese names albeit with some being formatted differently which itself still qualifies as names being shared as far as I'm concerned between Japanese and English media and was why I even suggested that we should note ways the same name can be formatted in the first place.

We can note specific examples of a name being used though once we can tabulate what media uses what names. Chimera-gui (talk) 18:58, April 26, 2018 (UTC)

I'm going to say that I care a little less about maintaining that kind of consistency, especially in the context of moving Omnimon to Omegamon.

And we actually don't really use latest... We tend to use earliest video game too and then put virtual pets beneath video games. Lanate (talk) 02:40, April 27, 2018 (UTC)

"name consistency for subspecies" -- this is not a concern that we have had before, and in most places, it's not going to be possible without artificial dubbing, which we've always been strictly against. For example, MedievalDukemon, the closest to name consistency would be MedicalGallantmon. Then, Volcamon and AncientVolcanomon, etc.

"one single outlier does not negate" -- it negates the claim that the game is simply using the Japanese names, full stop. (And if I'm reading the previous discussion right, we already had counterexamples in the form of AncientWisemon, the Gizumons, and Sakuyamon (Miko)). I'm a strong proponent that any rule we define needs to be fully honest about itself, and not just expect the readers to ignore examples that conflict with the rule.

"than you seem to think" -- can you please tone down the attacks? I've endeavored to only respond based on the topics themselves, here and on the chat, but I keep seeing a lot of attacks on good faith discussion, and it's honestly depleting my energy to participate in this project.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 12:02, April 27, 2018 (UTC)

We have uses of both Volcanomon and PileVolcanomon in English media: http://digitalindex.ultimatedigimon.com/digimonccg/DigimonCCG_pages/Starter2/DM-0063_Volcanomon.jpg http://digitalindex.ultimatedigimon.com/digimonccg/DigimonCCG_pages/Booster3/DM-165_PileVolcanomon.jpg
It it willful denial to say that that the names in Heroes are not derived from the Japanese names. Remember that many believed that AncientWisetmon's name is AncientWisemon prior to the DRB establishing it differently.

Gizumon can be considered another situation of alternate formatting like Imperialdramon's modes, particularly for the later stages which basically just swap a colon for a hyphen. A similar case can be made for Sakuyamon (Miko) as well given Daemon (Mantled).

Chimera-gui (talk) 23:43, April 27, 2018 (UTC)

And using Volcanomon for the subset name would require another revision to our naming policy, one which I don't think would be supportable, especially since those aren't the frequently used names.

It's not willful denial. Dude, quit it with that. The existence of contradicting examples means the wiki cannot claim, with honesty, that the names in set A are equal to the names in set B. They may be largely similar, but that's honestly true for a lot of the games, like Story or Dawn/Dusk. The names that are different than the Japanese sources will always be the minority.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 11:36, April 30, 2018 (UTC)

I would personally go with 'most used'. So for example, Hououmon has Tamers, CS, HM and ASR. Then you go down her list and like 50 other appearances are Pheonixmon, as well as Tri which is anime too. With Tamers and Tri tied at one anime each, I feel the games would then be weighted in. Most used then would remove arguments on renames , cuz it'd take a really long time for something to be used that has been used for 20 years etc.Marcusbwfc (talk) 22:26, August 3, 2018 (UTC)

I can agree with "most used", but to be reliable about it we'd probably have to set up a google doc listing the name used in each localized source.

I also would like to know how things would be "weighted" if one source (ex. an anime season) uses multiple names. Does it get weighted based on #of episodes name used in, or just split evenly no matter how frequently the name is used within the source?Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 13:56, August 6, 2018 (UTC)

Personally, I would do it for 'series'. So using Hououmon, Tamers and Tri equal one series each. If going by episodes, the films count as one each for Tri? slightly harsh although I think Hououmon is only used in one episode of Tamers? even with episodes, Pheonixmon is in the final three Tri films which would be three episodes to one. I personally though, prefer counting each series as one. It makes it easier that way rather than scouring the series for every single episode. If anime is what you wanna use for primary source, then fair enough (though Laylamon will forever trigger me) but I think if the anime is tied on names, using the games after that would be a good tie breaker. Doing that, like I said has only Tamers, Cyber Sleuth, Hacker's Memory and All-Star Rumble (even when Links copy pasted the Field Guide of Cyber Sleuth, they still used the name Pheonixmon) for Hououmon and like 9 billion for Phoenixmon. Hououmon's article is actually really confusing because the main name is listed as Hououmon but then if you read her page... Hououmon barely shows up. I'm too lazy to count them right now, but it's probably something like 95% to Pheonixmon. Do we need the names for every Mon in existence? or just ones that are 'disputed'? if you provide me a list of the ones to make into a list, I can do my best. Never really used Google Docs though, so perhaps on each species talk page? another one off the top of my head hat would end up changing is Chrysalimon, as it has that in Tamers, Kurisarimon in Data Sqaud and then Kurisarimon in like 95% of games. The only one I am aware of it using Chrsalimon (I prefer Kurisarimon cuz I can actually spell it lmfao) is in Next Order as well as Links (who appears to have used the Next Order names, whilst copying the Cyber Sleuth, so "Omegamon" is used too. In addition, it would also lead to ShellNumemon and MedicalGallantmon (twice because loldamn Cyber Sleuth/Hacker's Memory didn't fix a single error)Marcusbwfc (talk) 02:29, August 7, 2018 (UTC)

While we have to make a decision for one name to name the article, each section uses whatever name that publication uses, so Hououmon's article is not an accident.

I would strongly prefer we at least have a list for any Digimon with multiple names, to head these arguments off at the pass in the future.

I would also recommend getting in touch with Bandai Namco and seeing if you can suggest some corrections to the names. Might help.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 12:44, August 7, 2018 (UTC)

What if we make a page on here with the names for each one etc? I can get started on it. I'd do Hououmon, ShellNumemon, MedicialGallantmon, Kurisarimon for now and then maybe brose down the list for alternate names etc. I'm assuming it would need to be a Fan: page, such as Fan:Contested Dub names.Marcusbwfc (talk) 19:17, August 7, 2018 (UTC)

A google doc would work best.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 19:58, August 7, 2018 (UTC)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UrpYPvJ909Ze7Eq3uQDoTQVE4C_uu3HkoqgAiPiqnnM/edit?usp=sharing I don't want just anyone to be able to edit it, so I would want admins, I guess, to get access. View only for now. Any random getting access can vandalise and IDK if I'd be able to restore it. For Digimon Battle, there doesn't seem to be any where to get a list of names, this is what I can find - but like the DMO wiki, I suppose it can be taken with salt. https://digimonbattle.wikia.com/wiki/Digimon_Battle_Online_Wiki Marcusbwfc (talk) 19:25, August 8, 2018 (UTC)

This is closer to what I meant. We can go through and just inpu names given in any game/anime/cards/manga/other, and I can whip up formulas for it to auto-spit out the names that each policy (excluding the editor discretion ones) would output.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 16:29, August 21, 2018 (UTC)

I requested access. I can manually add some of the namesMarcusbwfc (talk) 18:49, August 21, 2018 (UTC)

Next Order duplicates all 'naming errors' from Cyber Sleuth in their card list, with the exception of Grumblemon and MedievalGallantmon. They also aren't the same translation team based on Omegamon and Phoenixmon, though they probably just took the names from CS's medals due to laziness.Marcusbwfc (talk) 03:17, October 12, 2018 (UTC)

ShellNumemon[]

As of Digimon Links, ShellNumemon seems to have been used four times, KaratsukiNumemon has been used twice, and KaratukiNumemon was only used in Heroes. What should we do here? Chimera-gui (talk) 04:25, October 15, 2017 (UTC)

I would put this in the section above. It depends on which policy we choose to go with -- currently it would remain Karatsuki.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 13:11, October 16, 2017 (UTC)

Romanization[]

Previous discussion

Talk:Four Great Dragons
...

I know it may be non-standard, but replacing ou with oo or ō, or n with m, is annoying to me and frustrating -- both from not knowing intuitively when to do it, and adding an extra step to pulling the kana on WWWJDIC. That being said, I do like using the macrons for the chōonpu or repeated vowels (from the same particle).Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 16:43, November 14, 2018 (UTC)

Attack name localization and continuity-specific attacks[]

Previous discussion

The policy I've been using is most common localization in anime > most common in video games > most common in card games. I think MetalGarurumon has the most research I've ever done for attacks. Lanate (talk) 03:00, August 5, 2017 (UTC)

I would prefer to just go with "first localization", using the same order that you did, just from the desire to not have to tabulate every single attack usage after I've figured out which one was first.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 16:31, August 21, 2018 (UTC)

I can support switching if we tabulate everything to ensure transparency.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 16:39, November 14, 2018 (UTC)

Etymology sections[]

Previous discussion

Talk:Paildramon
...

In order to address these arguments, as well as criticism about the wiki in the fandom, I support softening the wording for non-confirmed etymologies to use "possibly".Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 16:38, November 14, 2018 (UTC)

Dawn Dusk numbering[]

Can someone please imgur a screenshot of what numbering the damn thing uses? I'm tired of this going back and forth.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 18:13, August 9, 2017 (UTC)

Here. Lanate (talk) 02:43, August 10, 2017 (UTC)

Some media leave out the Blank[]

Is it really necessary to include the Species name with with whatever indentifier omitted in the Other Names section when the phrase "Some media leave out the ___" is already included in the Etymologies section in some way? Chimera-gui (talk) 20:12, October 12, 2017 (UTC)

Registering my strong disapproval for stating "some media" without specifying the media, either visibly or invisibly. The whole reason we started the other names thing in the first place was to have more accountability and less handwaving.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 11:38, April 30, 2018 (UTC)

Video Game Attacks[]

So the policy states that Video Game attacks are left out due to them being inheritable but it's not actually that many games that have them as so. Well, most moves are, but pretty much all games have attacks that are exclusive to a Mon, or a Mon and one of the Palette Swaps (Such as MetalGarurumon and BlackMetalGarurumon both having Garurumon Tomahawk and Ice Wolf Claw). From what I've played, only the DS games have special attacks as inheritable. The other games I've played, Digimon World, Digimon World: Next Order, Digimon World 2003, Digimon Story: Cyber Sleuth, Digimon Story: Cyber Sleuth - Hacker's Memory, Digimon Links where each Mon has exclusive attacks and the fighting games Digimon Rumble Arena, Digimon All-Star Rumble, Digimon BattleSpirit 2 etc, as well but those don't count I suppose, as they're anime dudes fighting. Still though, not many games allow "Pepper Breath" for example, to be used for anyone else other than Agumon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmhw4QLJQ6w with the following video, you can see that Agumon retains "Wolkennapalm 1""Heavy Strike 1" and "Attack Charge", which are listed as "inheritable skills", whilst "Pepper Breath" is listed is the "Special Move" and changes to "Mega Burst" for Geogreymon, "Mega Flame" for Greymon, "Burning Fist" for Meramon, "Fire Breath" for Tyrannomon and "Poop" for Sukamon. Going through the entire field guides of the three PS4 games though, only Alphamon (Blade of the Dragon King) and Alphamon Ouryuken (Ultimate Ouyruken) gain completely new attacks, which is likely because they had vanilla Alphamon pulling out the Ouryuken sword and using the attack of his alternate form, so had to give the alternate form something new. But yeah, from my entire experience of playing games only Digimon World DS, Digimon World Dawn and Dusk and probably the other Japanese exclusive DS titles allow special attacks to be inherited. Everything else gives every Digimon exclusive attacks only they can use, which almost always is from their official profile, using either the dub name, or the Japanese name (and like 95% use the Japanese name in the three PS4 games).

Samudramon has a skill called "Will-O'-Wisp Slash" but I have no clue if that's a new move, or just a new dub name for one of the three listed attacks. With the nature of Youtube being western, I cannot find footage of it using the attack in Japanese. Wikimon states that it's the attack "Rinkazan" that has been given the dub attack name "Will-O'-Wisp Slash" in the three games. So yeah, the DS games, you can give any Mon any attack, every other game, this is not the case. Only Agumon will ever have Pepper Breath, whilst in all three PS4 games (and Links), Only Alphamon has "Blade of the Dragon King", which is the move of Alphamon O, who instead replaces BOTK with a new move "Ultimate Ouryuken", which only Alphamon O can use. The other time it was brought up was Lillymon but none of the attacks that someone had posted to her profile were exclusive, all of them were inheritables. Marcusbwfc (talk) 21:31, May 17, 2018 (UTC)

I can agree with allowing all non-inheritable attacks. Can we fill a list like the one below?Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 12:12, May 18, 2018 (UTC)

Non-inheritable attacks (can someone link these to our appendices for each source?)
Anime-inspired

Digimon Adventure: Anode/Cathode Tamer -- All attacks
Digimon Digital Card Battle -- All attacks
Digital Card Arena
Digimon Adventure PSP -- All Attacks
Digimon Adventure 02: Tag Tamers -- All attacks
Digimon Adventure 02: D-1 Tamers -- All attacks
Digimon Adventure 02: Digital Partner -- ?
Digimon Tamers: Brave Tamer -- All attacks
Digimon Tamers: Pocket Culumon -- ?
Digimon Tamers: Digimon Medley -- All Attacks
Digimon BattleSpirit -- All Attacks
Digimon Tamers: Battle Spirit Ver 1.5 -- All Attacks
Digimon Rumble Arena -- All Attacks
Digimon BattleSpirit 2 -- All Attacks
Digimon World Data Squad -- All A Commands
Digimon Fusion Fighters -- ?
Digimon Universe Appli Monsters -- ?
Digimon Park -- ?
Digimon Typing -- ?
Digimon Racing -- ?
Digimon Rumble Arena 2 -- All attacks
Digimon All-Star Rumble -- All Attacks

World series

Digimon World -- Finishing Techniques
Pocket Digimon World: Wind Battle and Cool & Nature Battle -- ?
Digimon World 2 -- Skill
Digimon World 3 -- Signature Moves (usually last learned) leads
Digimon World 4 -- ? Signature Weapon (several match names of special moves from other media)??
Digimon World Re:Digitize and Decode -- unclear (see Agumon)
Digimon World: Next Order -- Special Attacks

Story series

Digimon World DS -- ?
Digimon World Dawn and Dusk -- Special Attacks
Digimon Story Lost Evolution -- ?
Digimon Story Super Xros Wars Red and Blue -- ?
Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth -- Special Attacks
Digimon Story Cyber Sleuth - Hacker's Memory -- Special Attacks
Digimon Links -- Signature skills

Monster series

Digital Monster S -- ?
Digital Monster WS -- ?
Digital Monster Card Game Ver. WSC -- ?
Digital Monster D-Project -- ?

KMMO series

Digimon Battle Server -- ?
Digimon Battle -- All Attacks
Digimon Masters -- All Attacks, ??F3 moves??

Other

Digimon Circle -- ?
Digimon Championship -- ?
Digimon Pendulum Revive and Survive -- ?
Digimon Life -- ?
Digimon Jintrix -- ?
Digimon Collectors -- ?
Digimon Heroes! -- ?
Digimon Fortune -- ?
Digimon Soul Chaser -- ?
Digimon ReArise -- ?

They're prob the ones ones I'd be able to verify from playing, if only more games had been released in Europe lmfao. (the DS Story titles allow Pepper Breath on anything etc). I figure it should be fine now then to add the BOTDK to Alphamon and Ulti Our to AO now then?Marcusbwfc (talk) 18:39, May 18, 2018 (UTC)

Please note that I'm not the king of the wiki, so just me saying "sounds good" does not mean there is consensus. We would need a comment from the other active editors (Lanate, Chimera-gui, Charles-929, and G-SANtos).Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 15:13, May 21, 2018 (UTC)

I'm willing to throw my weight behind this policy. Lanate (talk) 03:57, May 22, 2018 (UTC)

I have no opinions on this, do whatever you think is a good idea. Chimera-gui (talk) 23:14, May 24, 2018 (UTC)

Makes sense. I vote "yes". Anime... PAAWAA!!! 16:32, May 31, 2018 (UTC)—Last edited on 05:56, June 1, 2018 (UTC)

As far as the attack descriptions for these go, they need to continue to use the in-universe descriptions If the same attack has multiple, significantly different descriptions, that can be covered in the style of "Soul Digitalization" on Alphamon. Any description of the visual differences that isn't about the actual functioning of the attack, as in the switching of the sword between depictions, would be covered by the Design section if it's not covered in-universe.

Also, do we want to separate the non-anime vg attacks from the rest of the list, as done with Agumon and Akatorimon?Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 15:05, June 1, 2018 (UTC)

What about card attacks? cuz I noticed that Nyaromon has moves listed that aren't in the reference book and appear to be from cards. I figure this should be removed?Marcusbwfc (talk) 17:43, June 1, 2018 (UTC)

If you're referring to the Digital Monster Card Game or the Collectible Card Games, we do accept those as unique. The main thing we're trying to avoid is having a big list of every move in a game on a hundred different articles, because if we included all attacks a Digimon can learn, well, the Story games basically allow you to get from any Digimon to almost any other Digimon.

Also, would you mind breaking your post up above into paragraphs? It's very difficult to read them here and on the MedievalDukemon page.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 18:40, June 1, 2018 (UTC)

Ah well, no one's suggesting to use the generic attacks, just the ones that are exclusive which is like... only Alphamon and also I noticed it would be "bubbles" for a few Baby forms too. Also I notice Ds/Dawn/Dusk were edited to be that there's exclusive attacks but I don't believe that's the case. I remember having access to Pepper Breath on WarGreymon. As for where the moves are listed, I would list them different, or just mention "In Cyber Sleuth Alphamon uses BOTD".Marcusbwfc (talk) 18:46, June 1, 2018 (UTC)

Dawn/Dusk at the least have special attacks. I assume all the story games do, but Dawn Dusk definitely do.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 11:44, June 4, 2018 (UTC)

So Dawn and Dusk don't allow anyone to use any move? so you can't have WGmon using Pepper Breath? cuz if so, then I'm pretty sure no game allows it. Also, why did you restore the game moves I removed from pages such as Agumon?Marcusbwfc (talk) 17:34, June 4, 2018 (UTC)

The Story games and some of the World games have moves that anyone can learn. The Story games that I've played (incl. Dawn Dusk) also have unique moves. I restores the game moves you removed because you shouldn't have removed them.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 15:57, June 5, 2018 (UTC)

I would say yes in as long as the attack tecnique implies some sort of uniqueness. For example, I wouldn't add "Ouryuken" in the attack list of the regular Alphamon for obvious reason, although it's handled as a Special Technique in the first Cyber Sleuth. The Super Digica Taisen TCG is actually a good example of techniques being unique and random, so in this cases I'd make a decision in each case. --Charles.929 (talk) 16:30, June 6, 2018 (UTC)

I find keeping the Rumble Arena moves weird when the current discussion is for game moves. Anyway what about card moves? do they count? because there's some vanilla Alphamon cards that also use the Ouruyken move such as here- https://wikimon.net/Re-39t so the games aren't the only time vanilla Alphamon has used the attack. Marcusbwfc (talk) 17:15, June 6, 2018 (UTC)

I don't see anything obvious about excluding Ouryuken from Alphamon's techniques. By the same measure that multiple Digimon have Bubble Blow, there's no obvious problem with acknowledging that Alphamon has Ouryuken.

I don't see any reason to exclude Rumble Arena moves. The only reason we have a limitation in the first place is so that the Digimon Story/World games don't cause us to list every single attack in those games on every single page for a species that appears in them. It's okay to have upwards of twenty attacks, if the official material has given twenty attacks to a species. The issue is whether it's an attack that belongs to the species, or one that has merely been applied to it.

For rough comparison -- if this was the Pokemon Wiki, we'd be happy listing all the moves a species learns as it levels up, but we wouldn't include TMs. If a game allows a Digimon to learn every move, then listing all those moves doesn't inform anything about the Digimon, it informs about the game. Same reason why for games like Masters, where everything evolves at the same level, its not necessary to say "evolves to Champion at level X". Because that's not information about the topic, that's information about the game itself.

Ouryuken may be shared, and Rumble Arena techniques may be numerous, but they still inform about the Digimon. Alphamon Ouryuken is not just Alphamon with the sword, and honestly, even if he was this wouldn't be the first time we've noted when a Digimon was accidentally given another form's attacks.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 16:09, June 8, 2018 (UTC)

Yeah I wasn't trying to give Alphamon every attack that exists in CS/HM/NO/Links, that would be absurd. It's simply an exclusive attack that has been used for him in 4 games now, as well as an official card. I aint gonna go add "Wolkenpalm 3" to all 350 Digimon cuz they can all learn it lol. The only other moves that could be added is that all babies know "Bubbles" in CS but most got changed to the ones on their profiles, such as "Fox Tail" and "Adhesive Bubble Blow" for HM (Which I found slightly pointless as you don't keep babies long enough for those moves to be relevant), so it would only be Alphamon/Alpha O and the babies with "new" moves listed. Plus, the fighting games having moves listed kinda means this should be allowed anyway.Marcusbwfc (talk) 17:35, June 8, 2018 (UTC)

The existing policy was that all non-inheritable moves get listed, yes. The question was which moves are non-inheritable, which the list above is supposed to be a quick guide for. All special attacks in CS, even ones that show up among multiple Digimon, should be listed, just as they're listed in the DRB (as "Awa").Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 18:16, June 8, 2018 (UTC)

So is it fine to add BOTDK to vanilla Alphamon then? I wouldn't go as far as it's a "mistake" move since it's in mulitple games at this point. CS, NO, HM and Links and probably ReArise since that too uses CS models. From what I can see, no mods are against it and Alphamon O has "ultimate ouryuken" because someone else has his actual move. There aren't many that are used by mulitple dudes, just Bubbles in the first game and a few pallet swaps sharing moves.Marcusbwfc (talk) 22:23, August 3, 2018 (UTC)

At least for the Story games, we're all agreed that Special Attacks get listed, yes. Even when they have the appearance of being mistakes (which can be brought up on the talk page for discussion on whether to call out, if egregious).Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 13:55, August 6, 2018 (UTC)

The status of 'canon' Digimon species[]

So it's been a hot topic lately and so should get a general consensus. Should Digimon like Alphamon NX (DSCSHM Digimon), DotAgumon (DS Story games), the countless joke Digifuses and even something like Dot-Lalamon (a real life figure) count as species (although the joke fusions aren't counted anyway), or should they all be treated as 'non canon' and not having pages. There was also the point raised of "DotAgumon hasn't been used since 2010", which I personally don't think the date matters but it was brought up. I mean... Rockmon and L-ToyAgumon haven't been used in 2000. But still, with Chimera blocking the NX pages, which seems unfair when it's the voice of only one admin, it should be decided on and would blanket count for all these other guys. He also mentioned "null canon" but like... does that include only Japanese, since it's a Japanese franchise? there sure are a lot of dudes who would have to be deleted if not Category:Digimon of Non-Japanese Origin. Right now, everything except the NX forms have pages but it's currently "blocked" from being allowed to be made. Chimera stated he wants to delete all the pages of the 'non canon' Digimon, which apparently is all the dot, NX and probably joke Digifuse pages. My stance is they should count. They were treated as different Digimon in the respective sources they were in.Marcusbwfc (talk) 23:38, August 25, 2018 (UTC)

A discussion has already been had here. https://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:79681#71 to go over everything that has been said.Marcusbwfc (talk) 01:28, August 31, 2018 (UTC)

I vote that they should, because for most of these the games themselves explicitly define them as separate, and in the case of the Dot Digimon, give them strictly different profiles and attacks. The main drawback that I see to this is that we would have no reason to exclude Lilithmon L on these lines, and since I've not played Super Xros Wars I'm still very unclear on specifically what that creature is.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 16:30, November 14, 2018 (UTC)

That's all the more reason for me to be firmly against this as Lilithmon vs L Lilithmon XW is the most blatant example Gameplay/Story segregation, something I have railed against multiple times, as they are explicitly the same character and therefore should be treated as the same species. I have no earthly idea what the game makers were thinking when they decided this was a good idea and honestly saying that there was any thought behind this is being generous. This is the same deal as Justimon EX where it is so obviously non-canon that I don't understand why it's even being considered otherwise. Chimera-gui (talk) 19:27, November 14, 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with that line of reasoning -- SXW treats Lilithmon L as a separate species, not the same character. It's certainly an odd case, and we'd have to decide if it being differentiated in SXW but treated as DRB Lilithmon in other material (ex: Xros Archive) would mean that other creatures in similar situations (such as ChibiKamemon, WhiteWhamon) would need to be separated as well. But even then, that would only cover stuff that has contradictions between whether it is considered a member or separate from a species in different material -- it wouldn't affect Justimon (whose situation has been firmly declared by the DRB, which has always been the final word on species), nor other characters which are only treated one way in publications like the Dots, Megas, and NX. (i.e., no publication depicts an Alphamon NX without treating it as a separate species).Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 19:59, November 14, 2018 (UTC)

I actually saw a post on WTW a while back from Chimera himself that he doesn't consider something a species if it only counts as canon in one form of media (whether it be game, anime, card or manga, etc), and that he would purge Digimon only appearing in one thing so far as non canon (rip Hudiemon, though I suppose Bandai did post that random art of her that one time alongside Kazemon, woohoo she's canon!) and that that's why he didnt count the NX, because they only showed up as canon species in HM, so my thought was "so if they were copy pasted into the next game theyd count?" and that the older dot forms only counted due to being in multiple story games. the thing about the Super Xros Lillthmons is that you can get as many of them both as you want, right? not sure why that would count as a character? you could get 500 OG Liliths, and then get 500 2010 Liliths, just because you can. He also commented that he hated that cards exist of the BioHybrids, as that made them "canon" now, as he just treats them as normal Stegomon, for example.

Plus, this isnt the only place where 2010 is counted differently, collectors depicts different cards for OG vs 2010, with 2010 having no level. (KingShoutmon also is treated as a species, there). we have multiple media that treat 2010 llithmon as a separate entity to the OG, so based on that, we have two different sources that treat the leveless Lilithmon as a separate species. (and you can prob throw in something like that fusion fighter mobile game). also... just like cyberdramon, greymon, beelzemon etc 2010 - they've been ditched and the originals came back, just like OG lilithmon. all games since super xros (and even including super xros) have her a mega level virus type, not a no level (xros wars level?) no attribute type. if it was only super xros doing it, I could sorta understand, but its not.

with ChibiTortomon, I don't believe another one has ever shown up as a playable species, so fair enough on that one just being a normal Kamemon, but we have multiple sources using these lusty devils as two different mons. As for the NX/mutants, since their profiles are just lifted from the originals, I can sorta understand them not counting, then again, omnimon zwarts profile is also just copy pasted from OG omnimons. and isnt the two pawnchessmons exactly the same in the official DRB itself? seems CPed profiles isnt enough to discount a species, me thinks. then again, why do stingmon and exveemon black count? (And i only added stingmon black, as exveomon black was already on here, and both are from the same set, arguably, we should consider hookmon red to be a different mon, if same name but different colour counts)

although... I've actually mentioned this before, but right now, with how it is - it's currently 2-1 (Kryten and Lanate) vs Chimera, and you have five admins, right? that means you only need one of G-Santos or Charles to agree they count, and that's a unanimous. (although charles still isnt on here https://digimon.fandom.com/wiki/DigimonWiki:Administrators ) Marcusbwfc (talk) 20:42, November 14, 2018 (UTC)

Collectors I already have serious issues with because of the aforementioned Justimon EX (and btw Kryten, I would remind you that [Justimon Justimon's DRB article] had "Accel Arm" added to the Japanese text but kept both its url and Romanization indicting that "Justimon" is not a distinct subspecies contary to what Collectors implies.

Also, my statement was specifically about subspecies which Hudiemon is not. The reason I am against these subspecies being regarding as canon is because they are very sketchy to me. Chimera-gui (talk) 21:12, November 14, 2018 (UTC)

For Justimon, Next Order has the playable one as Justimon, but the card as Justimon: Accel Arm in both English and Japanese, which arguably could be treated as an abbreviation. I don't believe there's anything for the other two arms, though that states them like this, meaning I don't think we should count three different Justimons due to that. (DRB and Video games. DWNO only has the one Justimon card, whilst Hackers, after CS, doesn't differentiate). As for Collectors, a game is a game, as pointed out before. It's still two different media depicting the anime =\= the OG. its not like its dub error either... these are japanese games. also, I'd be willing not to count the NX based on the following: they're DLC, they have copy pasted profiles, and they dont have evolution lines, menaing there's only one per save file. Since there's only one, you cant raise an army of Alphamon NX to take over the world. You could in super xros with lilithmon 2010 tho.Marcusbwfc (talk) 21:28, November 14, 2018 (UTC)

Just as a point of order, marcus, let's leave off-wiki stuff off-wiki. Also, while we are talking about votes here, the goal is still to reach a unanimous consensus -- majority voting is just a last resort for truly intractable disputes.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 14:00, November 15, 2018 (UTC)

Exclusive attacks[]

This would be the discussion on how 'exclusive' attacks would work. So this would cover Apocalymon, Sakkakumon and Wormmon, as well as Beelzemon for Fist of the Beast King and a few others. Should they be counted on the main pages of the species, or just as attacks on the character page, due to being 'unnatural attacks', rather than 'species' attacks.Marcusbwfc (talk) 18:40, August 31, 2018 (UTC)

I think that attacks that are specifically treated as having narrative backing or are character-specific should be excluded (this would include BioSpinomon's Ivan attacks). This could arguable include the GeoGrey Sword, but I believe the Story games have included it as a generic ability of the species.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 16:32, November 14, 2018 (UTC)

GeoGrey Sword in later media depict it as something all ShineGreymons can do, meaning its just the same thing as Alphamons Seiken Grandalpha. Ivan is fair enough for BioSpniomon, as he specifically named them himself, though the only other BioSpinomon was in a card and I'm not sure it'll ever actually show up again, but yeah, that card BioSpinomon likely wouldn't start yelling about having kids with Yoshi or whatever lol. The others are Apcoalymon/Sakkukomon/Beelzemon, which I don't think should count. If another beelzemon shows up, (or heck, list a random one, like the one keisuke is friends with in hackers memory) and it isnt going to suddenly use fist of the beast king, cuz it hasn't killed a leomon to get that move, etc - whilst apocalymon, sure he can copy attacks, but the way its listed makes it seem like all apocalymons can use death claw, for example. so keisuke makes a apocalymon partner, but unless he also makes a devimon too, then tells it to steal devimons move. also, can we even say that the ability for apocalymon to copy moves is even cannon to other apocalymons? the DRB doenst mention it, which by virtue means the HM copy pasted DRB profile doesnt too, so that implies if keisuke gets one, he cant troll everyone and use their moves against them. sakkakumon appears to have done it multiple times, and his DRB profile states he can absorb moves, but apocalymons doesnt. its seems mr walking annihlation in the anime has that ability as exclusive to only him. I figure the point of a speices article, is that theoretically, all members of that species can use the move. sure, if a devimon attacks sakkumon, his death claw will be fired back at him (that sounds painful considering it's his arm), but he wont always be around a devimon to do this.Marcusbwfc (talk) 20:58, November 14, 2018 (UTC)

Mobile games below console games[]

I think mobile games should count below console games for a few reasons. (for dub terms and such)

Unlike console games, mobile games get taken down after a few years, meaning eventually people will be able to play these games and as such, wont be searching the names. For example, MedievalDukemon is being used from Heroes - however, Heroes was taken down in 2017, meaning right now, no one can use Heroes as a basis for finding the character, instead the names would come from either of the two Cyber Sleuth games (MedicalGallantmon), or Next Order (MedievalGallantmon). No matter what happens in the franchise - I can play Digimon World right now - heck, I still have my old PS1 for when I wanna play the PS1 games. People can play these forever. Heroes can never be played again. Links will probably be taken down before 2020, ReArise isn't dubbed but prob wont last that long either. No matter how badly they could do, or translation wise - they will always be available, people will always be able to load their consoles and play these games. We can probably chuck Masters in here as well since it's an online MMO, it will eventually shut its doors. The only way to see MedivialDukemon right now is to wind up on the article somehow, maybe from seeing the attached link on Gallantmon or something.

These are more "personal", but mobile games are terrible and little effort goes in. Heroes specifically is just slapping generic art on cards and thats it, and they were too lazy to use the dub terms. Cyber Sleuth might've been seen as a "mess", but at least they used a good 95% of the established names and attacks instead of "we cba dubbing it". Links, in fairness, for the 249 from Cyber Sleuth has just ported over the names and attacks, so that's fine... though they're making up their own names for the Digimon outside of that... annoyingly. Why couldn't they just use the HM names for Zubamon's line!? this is part the course I guess. Also, we should prob technically have All-Star RUmble and Masters in a similar lower position due to them being western only games.Marcusbwfc (talk) 02:20, October 2, 2018 (UTC)

I'm averse to making the "ranking" of things more opaque to newcomers. "Video games" vs. "Anime" is easy for a newcomer to understand, but "Western-produced" vs. "Mobile" vs. "Console Japanese" is not as immediate. Furthermore, Heroes! lack of name-changes meant that it had significantly less asinine names than Cyber Sleuth did. Prioritizing by age or, if necessary, by publication platform, is a lot easier to check as compared to something like "most-used" or "highest priority source" -- you can just run through the archives for each work one at a time, and stop when you get a result. If we switch to most-used or highest-priority, I don't see a consistent, fair way to do it other than having a massive, maintained google chart documenting all the info. Which, I mean, wouldn't be terrible if it's accessible to readers.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 16:36, November 14, 2018 (UTC)

While I get your apprehension to canon tiers as a principle, treated all media as canon unless stated otherwise almost never works in practice because two contradictory statements cannot both be true. Both Nash and SF Debris have explain why canon is almost always a tiered system as a fail safe against contradictions. Chimera-gui (talk) 21:18, November 14, 2018 (UTC)

We're talking about a multiverse that splits as events change, though. It's already by design safe from contradictions, because any contradiction just means there's a split timeline. See marvel or transformers wikis for examples. Hell, transformers even has working examples of two competing claims for how the multiverse works, with those two claims being dealt with in-narrative.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 14:28, November 15, 2018 (UTC)

Special lines[]

Chimera, correct me if I'm leaving anything out, but I think your proposal was to include "special lines" from v-pets, where a certain character is kept separate from the "web" and given a straight line from beginning to end. This would be an expansion upon the current form of DW:EVOLVE, as it would not show narrative purpose, but it would be largely in line with the thematic intention of those lines, as well as marketing on Digimon Web and V-Jump articles.

My main concerns are:

This would, to my understanding, generally produce results pretty similar to Battle, Masters, and V-Jump, which we allow under very tenuous justifications.
However, it would make Sakuttomon > Hackmon and Bukamon > Coronamon/Lunamon "valid", which seems wrong to me as these seem to exist just as spot-fillers. It's also not clear whether this would set precedent for future editors to push including other non-narrative 1-1 evolutions in other video games. Conversely, it would exclude stuff like Numemon > Monzaemon, Nanimon > Digitamamon > Titamon, Vegiemon > Vademon, Raremon > ExTyrannomon > Puppetmon, and Sukamon > Etemon > KingEtemon, MetalGreymon Virus > BlitzGreymon, SkullGreymon > SkullMammon, Andromon > HiAndromon, Megadramon > Aegisdramon, MetalTyranomon > Mugendramon, Mamemon > BanchoMamemon, MetalMamemon > CresGarurumon, which seem like they were also intended as thematic evolution (although several of these are covered by explicitly narrative evolutions elsewhere in the franchise).

I think we should have an open discussion about this.

For my own personal vote, I would really like to see explicit, numerated rules for how this would work, and see them stress-tested against unintuitive cases that could produce undesired results.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 16:28, November 14, 2018 (UTC)

I did get confused as to why the X forms didn't count, but the ones in the Pendulum Ver 20 counted, but not the post from Bandai about the X (seems equivalent to banners, to me). Also, I didnt even think to check other V-pets with special Digi-eggs, you are correct that based upon what was apparently decided for the Pend 20, that Bukamon -> Coronamon and Bukamon -> Lunamon would count, as well as Sakkutomon -> Hackmon. theyre the exact same thing. As for some of those evolutions, I remember reading about that MetalMamemon -> CresGarurumon thing on V-Jump, which should count if its on there (bandai use VJ to announce stuff). youre not wrong though, if V-Pets count, thats giving it special dispensation. how about we go to dawn and dusk, which has the epitomy of random? gazimon -> apemon - divermon. that is an exclusive evolution line. or that guy who keeps bringing up that apparently impmon -> wizardmon is the only champion/rookie form for both digimon in rearise. An argument you could make is that sakuttomon -> hackmon, and bukamon to luna/corono doesnt count, because that means sakuttomon and bukamon has two possible evolutions in the same v-pet - cancelling out the "canon". do bandai post about these special eggs? I wasnt on WTW when the pend 20 was in the announcing stages, so didnt see marcs updates, as he hadn't stared copying them over to reddit yet (which is why I even see things in the first place tbh)

As for the above listed evolutions, the following would still count from other media

Numemon -> monzaemon, digitamamon -titamon, sukamon - etemon (Wouldnt king after this be a warp break becase of etemon chaos and metaletemon?) metalgreymon > blitz, andro > hiandro, metalty - machineMarcusbwfc (talk) 20:02, November 14, 2018 (UTC)

So... I'm going through Links for adding evolutions, and there's special versions of Koromon and Tsunomon, that allow evolution to Vorvomon (Koromon), Shoutmon (A different Koromon), and Tsunomon (Gumdramon). You cannot turn these Digimon into anything else, so if you get this Tsunomon for example, it can only become Gumdramon, not the other Digimon Tsunomon currently has access to. Seems like the same thing, to me. ...they even come in Digi-Eggs that you have to hatch first.Marcusbwfc (talk) 03:04, February 1, 2019 (UTC)

I'm personally against including the video games, since there's stuff like Dawn and Dusk with tons of mostly nonsensical non-branching lines.Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 15:32, February 1, 2019 (UTC)

Hmm fair enough, since it could lead to stuff like Gizamon > Apemon > Divermon, though the recent games give each Mon 6 evolutions usually, so this being doing in Links for these three mons is a weird one. I Didn't even realise they werent on Koromon/Tsunomon by default till I was adding Lavorvomon's links info and went, "wait, vorvomon wasn't on koromon". then I doubled checked and noticed neither was shoutmon or gumdramon, and theyre treated a "special" digimon, etc. meaning the koromon/tsunomon for those three are technically different spots in the links field guide. makes me wonder why they used koromon/tsunomon, when they could've used something new, but eh oh well. I wonder if the addition of Ryudamon will do this too once he's added, as hes been announced. then again, zubamon is part of generic tsunomon, rather than being "special". Wikimon actually has Koromon bolded (Canon) for vorvomon, for what I assume is the same reason, but not demimeramon.Marcusbwfc (talk) 21:08, February 1, 2019 (UTC)

Toei images[]

For images where we only have a black and white Toei control art, I am personally okay with a colored screenshot as an alternative -- or at the very least, colored screenshots should be present on the page. Does anyone else have an issue with this?Now activating Project: SPIDERS EVERYWHERE 14:38, November 15, 2019 (UTC)

No, but I didn't have time to do anything about it. I can start next month. I'm busy with college until December 5. Anime... PAAWAA!!! 17:15, November 15, 2019 (UTC)

What Digimon in particular?Marcusbwfc (talk) 22:00, November 15, 2019 (UTC)

I believe Kryten was thinking more about human characters, as the inexistence of available colored Toei images is more common for them than for Digimon. Anime... PAAWAA!!! 22:15, November 15, 2019 (UTC)

Oh right like Catherine Deneuve. I actually really dislike the black and white art, funnily enough.Marcusbwfc (talk) 22:22, November 15, 2019 (UTC)