Talk:Agumon (Data Squad)

Game evolutions
Okay, should we have a section called "Game forms" and list a gallery with the evolutions from the game? 23:02, February 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * There's like thirty of them, and none of them have any canon aspect. At best, we could have a link to the Digimon World Data Squad/Digimon Encyclopedia, or whatever the name of the in-game encyclopedia is, where we list all the evolution requirements and stats and such. We have a draft for that already, though I can't remember where we put it. Anyway, something like "In Digimon World Data Squad, Agumon can digivolve to a variety of forms listed in the Encylopedia." 23:36, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Tyrant
Seems a bit of a strong word to describe Yggdrasil.

AvengingArchAngel (talk) 01:16, September 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * It demanded absolute obedience, tortured babies, and had a plan to xenocide an entire planet. It fits the definition perfectly:
 * A despot; a ruler who governs unjustly, cruelly, or harshly.  [quotations ▼]
 * (by extension) Any person who abuses the power of position or office to treat others unjustly, cruelly, or harshly.

14:13, September 19, 2016 (UTC)

"It demanded absolute obedience,…": At what specific point(s)?

"…tortured babies,…": That was more relating to it going insane?

"and had a plan to xenocide an entire planet.": That was in defence of its own planet and inhabitants from the inhabitants from the other planet who had done significant damage to its planet's inhabitants (true it was mainly Akihiro Kurata but Yggdrasil was fearful of allowing further damage from the point when Earth and the Digital World were set to collide).

"It fits the definition perfectly:", I would not say so.

AvengingArchAngel (talk) 23:02, September 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) Has Craniamon ready to kill the DATS team for their "disloyalty to the king". Literally the first episode he is introduced, everything that he says and is said about him is that it is unacceptable to question his decision. In episode 34, we even get "Intruders? So, Craniamon has turned on me. He will pay dearly for his disloyal actions, as all who dare to challenge my final decision of destroying the Human World!"
 * 2) Tortured babies: that's not a rebuttal. It's still a tyrant because of it, and you're assuming that it went insane in the first place
 * 3) "in defense of its own planet" -- it was a bad plan that wouldn't have worked, and was much more extreme than was required, as the DATS team proved. Furthermore, Yggdrasill flatly rejected all attempts by humanity to find a more peaceful solution (remember, it sent Craniamon to execute the DATS team for even attempting to discuss the issue), and immediately decided to commit genocide. Even if it had been correct, it would still, objectively, be a tyrannical plan.
 * 4) The script outright says it right here: "Just 'cause things didn't go your way, you want to wipe out everything and start from scratch?" / "You say you're trying to save the Digital World and the Digimon. What happened? You don't care about saving them anymore? Despite knowing the truth, you still rather destroy everything than admit you're wrong. You have no right to call yourself a King."
 * 5) "I would not say so" -- well, that's your own opinion then? The objective facts of what it does match the definition. You've failed to demonstrate any way in which it doesn't act like a tyrant, much less that it doesn't act like a tyrant in the general case. 01:33, September 20, 2016 (UTC)

"Has Craniamon ready to kill the DATS team for their "disloyalty to the king".": That was more to do with the fact that they were supporting the humans who were considered enemies to the Digimon. "Literally the first episode he is introduced, everything that he says and is said about him is that it is unacceptable to question his decision.": What was said along those lines? "In episode 34, we even get "Intruders? So, Craniamon has turned on me. He will pay dearly for his disloyal actions, as all who dare to challenge my final decision of destroying the Human World!": Wasn't that episode 45? He saw Craniamon as betraying the Digimon to the Humans. Given all that had happened (notably Kurata's actions) Yggdrasil decided that destroying the Human World as necessary to save the Digital World and anyone who hindered such was contributing to the destruction of the Digital World and the death of all Digimon.

"It's still a tyrant because of it, and you're assuming that it went insane in the first place.": Wasn't there something on the wikia at one point stating that Yggdrasil "entered a state of cold logic ridden insanity" or something like that?

'in defense of its own planet' -- "it was a bad plan that wouldn't have worked, and was much more extreme than was required, as the DATS team proved.": How would it not have worked? Did Yggdrasil believe or know at the time that it was excessive? How did the DATS team prove it? What did they do that provided proof? "Furthermore, Yggdrasill flatly rejected all attempts by humanity to find a more peaceful solution…": How so? "(remember, it sent Craniamon to execute the DATS team for even attempting to discuss the issue),": Craniamon was sent to challenge anyone who approached Yggdrasil. Presumably so that not just anyone could approach it easily e.g. the Seven Great Demon Lords. Remember what happened in Next where Barbamon was able to hijack the host computer due to inadequate security measures. "and immediately decided to commit genocide.": Only when the Digital World was set to collide with the human world did he decide to commit genocide immediately. Before then while heavily considering it on two occasions was convinced to hold off the attack. "Even if it had been correct, it would still, objectively, be a tyrannical plan.": What do you mean?

The script outright says it right here: "Just 'cause things didn't go your way, you want to wipe out everything and start from scratch?" / "You say you're trying to save the Digital World and the Digimon. What happened? You don't care about saving them anymore? Despite knowing the truth, you still rather destroy everything than admit you're wrong. You have no right to call yourself a King.", like I said Yggdrasil had gone insane at that point.

AvengingArchAngel (talk) 05:07, September 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * While I don't disagree that Yggdrasill in Data Squad behaves in a tyrannical fashion when it was introduced, the belief that it had simply malfunctioned between it's meeting with Spencer and the Royal Knights arc isn't as far-fetched as you're suggesting. Remember that Kurata's actions, such as trying to control Belphemon who is one of the Seven Great Demon Lords; a group of notoriously dangerous Digimon that even had at least three members (Lucemon, Barbamon, and Daemon) be main villains themselves, were completely illogical if it had been in the name of defending humanity since while hostile Digimon exist most aren't hostile until provoked as peaceful discussion had been possible before Kurata had started killing Digimon left and right with Merukimon specifically likely being the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back and the concept of malfunctioning AI itself is hardly new to begin with.

And demanding obedience isn't exactly a trait exclusive to tyrants either, any figure of authority typically demands some level of loyalty from subordinates regardless of moral alignment, for example: Goliath got royally pissed off when Elisa convinced the others to move out of the castle behind his back after he had refused to see reason himself in the Gargoyles episode Enter Macbeth. Chimera-gui (talk) 03:42, September 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * Yggdrasil is a rule who governs cruelly and harshly. It chose genocide as the first option, and had to be talked down by Spencer in the first place. It has stated multiple times that death is the punishment for questioning any of its decisions, even when that means literally torturing babies. That's not "demanding some level of loyalty", it is torturing babies for not agreeing with it 100%.
 * Jdogno, I've already answered each of your points on these questions, and I have no interest in repeating myself further because you're pulling the same old song-and-dance of just repeating your questions over and over and acting like you didn't see my answers. Yggdrasil's actions objectively fit the definition of a tyrant -- I have provided quotes directly from the material showing how harsh and cruel it was. If you're not willing to discuss this in good faith, then it will not be discussed any further. 12:56, September 20, 2016 (UTC)

"Jdogno, I've already answered each of your points on these questions, and I have no interest in repeating myself further because you're pulling the same old song-and-dance of just repeating your questions over and over and acting like you didn't see my answers.": I do not know who that is. What do you mean by that?

"Yggdrasil's actions objectively fit the definition of a tyrant -- I have provided quotes directly from the material showing how harsh and cruel it was.": Nothing conclusive.

"If you're not willing to discuss this in good faith, then it will not be discussed any further.": I am willing to discuss this in good faith. I just do not simply agree with you on certain points.

AvengingArchAngel (talk) 03:41, September 21, 2016 (UTC)


 * Kryten, the problem is that just about every reason you used against Yggdrasill could be applied to Zhuqiaomon from Tamers as well. Demanding absolute loyalty? He punishes a Deva that technically wasn't even one of his own simply for getting partnered with a young child. Choosing genocide as the first option? He flat out sent multiple Devas to attack humanity and unlike the Royal Knights, these attacks were done unprovoked not to mention the fact that he openly despises humanity, something that he was even called out for by Azulongmon. Killing babies? Again, he wanted a group of children dead simply for interfering with his agenda.

And you seem to have missed my point about Yggdrasill choosing genocide only after Kurata attack first and more importantly without provocation. It seemed to have no issue with Keenan being raised in the Digital World. What's more during the episode that BanchoLeomon revealed his backstory, Yggdrasill rightly pointed out that human history isn't exactly a pleasant one with violence being a recurring problem for our species. The quotes you provided also don't really work since by that point, Yggdrasill was revealed to be an AI that had quite clearly gone full on HAL 9000.

That is the key point I'm trying to make, the only difference between Zhuquaomon and Yggdrasill is that the former is a sapient being acting out of rage and desperation while the latter is a computer incapable of emotion acting purely by cold, unfeeling logic. The actions are similar but the mentality behind them couldn't be more different Chimera-gui (talk) 15:17, September 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * 1) Zhuqiaomon is a tyrant as well, and it's reasoning and approach is actually incredibly similar to Yggdrasill's, down to specific phrases used about humans being a corruption or Digimon allying with humans being traitors or dishonorable.
 * 2) In Tamers, all the Deva belong to Zhuqiaomon. They are only evenly split up in the expanded canon. Antylamon was in fact guarding the gate to Zhuqiamon's castle.
 * 3) Gavrilo Princip's crime did not justify 16 million dead, nor did Herschel Grynszpan's assassination justify the Holocaust. I did not address the point because, in the utmost politeness, it's a bad point. As stated in the show itself, one person's misdeeds don't justify the execution of an entire species, and never can. That's the whole moral of that season -- neither Kurata nor Yggdrasill are in the right. Only the utmost need for self defense could possibly justify it, and it would still be harsh or cruel unless performed with absolute compassion and lack of malice.
 * 4) Yggdrasill chose to ignore that violence is literally a "law" in the Digital World, via the "law of the jungle". Furthermore, the Seven Great Demon Lords exist. Any point that Yggdrasill has is pot-kettle, and furthermore, even if he was totally justified in eliminating humanity, the way that he went about it (demanding absolute unquestioning obedience and punishing even those seeking a compromise with attempted murder, enjoying the suffering of humanity) is undeniably cruel and harsh.
 * 5) Both Zhuqiaomon and Yggdrasill are artificial intelligences, and there's nothing in the canon to suggest that Yggdrasill is incapable of emotion (in fact, we have Norn and Cyber Sleuth to suggest that *all* versions of Yggdrasill are capable of emotion), and it is absolutely demonstrated (with example quotes just on this page) that it is . 18:00, September 20, 2016 (UTC)
 * Good to see a consistency regarding the usage of the term tyrant.
 * True but doesn't negate the fact that he still punished the Deva for basically no reason.
 * I will concede points 3, 4, and 5 though. Chimera-gui (talk) 18:33, September 20, 2016 (UTC)