DigimonWiki talk:General guidelines

Starting out
As noted on Talk:Main Page, this is a basic start for our general guidelines. It's not complete yet, but at least it's something. -- Ned Scott 23:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Naming
Okay, centralized location. Please verify the below and revise your votes as needed.


 * Previous discussions
 * Talk:Babydmon (March 2011)
 * Talk:Marsmon (August 2015)
 * Talk:Omnimon Zwart (February 2016)
 * Talk:MedievalDukemon (February 2016)
 * Talk:Omnimon (February 2017)
 * Talk:SnowGoblimon (March 2017)


 * Example:
 * Original policy would give us Marusumon (current tentative support by all mods)
 * "Most common localization" policy would give us Marsmon (supported: Kryten, Lanate)
 * "Most common localization + Consideration Towards Consistent Trend in New Localizations Amendment" policy would give us Marsmon (supported: Chimera-gui)
 * "Most common localization + Inertia (Only override name when a localization is used in a strictly greater number of works than current name)" policy would give us Marsmon (supported: Lanate)
 * "First localization ever" policy would give us Marsmon
 * "Latest localization ever" policy would give us ???
 * Original policy + One-off Gibberish Exclusionary Policy Amendment would give us Marsmon (supported: Kryten, Lanate, Chimera-gui, G-SANtos)
 * Original policy + Fusion and Cyber Sleuth Medals Don't Count Unless They Have To Amendment would give us Marsmon (supported: Kryten)


 * Names in question
 * Daemon/Demon/Creepymon
 * Devimon/Darkmon
 * Monzaemon/Teddymon
 * Zhuqiamon/Xuanwumon/Ebonwumon
 * MedievalDukemon/MedicalGallantmon
 * Babydmon/Bebydomon
 * Wendigomon/Wendimon/Endigomon
 * Phelesmon/Feresmon
 * SnowGoburimon/SnowGoblimon
 * Yggdrasill/King Drasil
 * Bastemon/Persiamon/Beastmon
 * Chaosdramon/Chaosdromon
 * Volcdramon/Volcdoramon
 * Volcdoramon is due to Reference Book so I don't think it counts, unless the "DRB romanization overrules all" rule is also up for discussion
 * Heroes.
 * I'll take it back then. Lanate (talk) 02:30, August 4, 2017 (UTC)
 * Mermaidmon/Mermaimon
 * Volcanomon/Volcamon
 * AncientVolcanomon/Volcanomon/AncientVolcamon
 * PileVolcanomon/PileVolcamon
 * Apocalymon/Apokarimon
 * Arukadhimon/Arkadimon/Arcadiamon
 * Bearmon/Kumamon
 * Blimpmon/Brimpmon
 * Crusadermon/LoadKnightmon/LordKnightmon
 * DotFalcomon/Dfalcomon
 * Lucemon Shadowlord Mode/Lucemon Wild 2nd Mode/Lucemon Satan Mode
 * KaratukiNumemon/KaratsukiNumemon/ShellNumemon
 * Feel free to add more unsavory options

Outcomes

 * Original policy
 * Daemon
 * Devimon
 * Monzaemon
 * Zhuqiaomon is a bird
 * Ebonwumon is a turtle
 * MedicalDukemon
 * Marusumon
 * Wendigomon
 * Babydmon
 * King Drasil


 * Earliest localization ever
 * Darkmon
 * Teddymon
 * Marsmon
 * Endigomon
 * Yggdrasill
 * Marsmon
 * Endigomon
 * Yggdrasill
 * Yggdrasill

. ..

Discussion/votes
Okay, what just happened with HiAndromon is why I am not okay with any "latest localization" policy that doesn't have some caveat. From a maintenance standpoint, it's a complete nightmare, especially since we use whatever the current page name is across the wiki; repeated name changes end up either requiring monumental cleanup or inconsistencies across the board. Lanate (talk) 01:53, August 9, 2017 (UTC)
 * We are trying to make sure that the wikia is as accurate as possible and that means using the newest names barring idiotic ones. That requires more work yes, but that's part of the job and we should not be afraid to move pages when necessary. Chimera-gui (talk) 05:59, August 9, 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, that's for the current conception of "accurate". As long as we're consistent, accurate could also mean "name most well-known to fandom", or even say fuck it all and go with the Japanese names for the species, in-medium names for the characters. 15:52, August 9, 2017 (UTC)
 * Fair point but even then, we'd still have to rename pages and files accordingly no matter what which is the point I'm trying to get across. Chimera-gui (talk) 16:37, August 9, 2017 (UTC)
 * I prefer naming rules that have more inertia than not simply because it is not only annoying but also confusing to repeatedly move primary pages. Lanate (talk) 02:43, August 10, 2017 (UTC)


 * Okay, I don't remember when I supported "first localization ever", and I'm too lazy to reread all these discussions now, but I'll change my vote to "whatever doesn't give us Darkmon and Teddymon", because I'm sure these are the One True Great Cringe that nobody here wants. 21:57, August 10, 2017 (UTC)

It looks like we all support the original policy plus a one-off exclusionary amendment. How do we want to go about that one? I'm learning toward this: We can ignore a spelling that's used only once as long as a valid dub name otherwise exists for it. If that spelling is used more than once, we have to seriously consider it. Like the following: Any comment, objections, concerns? Lanate (talk) 02:02, September 6, 2017 (UTC)
 * We can ignore Marusumon (Digimon Fusion) in favor of Marsmon (Digimon World 3).
 * We can't ignore King Drasil because it's used in Digimon Data Squad and Cyber Sleuth.
 * I can agree with that but to your earlier comment about want name inertia I ask how long should this inertia be? I do understand why there'd be hesitance to renaming a page in light of that incident but if like in the case of HighAndromon there is no obvious objection (since the meaning is still the same and in fact clearer), there is very little reason to not change what name we use beyond inertia.  The problems you and Kryten voiced, while concerns, were/are always going to happen regardless of our policies as Appli Monsters has made abundantly clear. It's unfortunate yes but that's the nature of the beast and barring a policy change within Bandai itself, that's not to change anytime soon.  As someone on tumblr rightly noted, Pokémon is described as Apollonian while Digimon is raw, unabashed Dionysian in nature: here
 * My mention of inertia ties into the use of most common dubbed name. We'd only move a page if the name we're moving it to has been used in strictly more cases than the current. Like, if the current page is HiAndromon and HiAndromon has been used in 5 pieces of media, we'd only move to HighAndromon if HighAndromon has been used in 6 pieces of media. That it has to be strictly more means inertia. Lanate (talk) 03:09, September 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * Sound good in theory but I have some reservations given that there are Digimon that rarely appear in media to begin with. Chimera-gui (talk) 06:04, September 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * Can you elaborate on those reservations? I mean, well, we already have a host of Digimon who only appear in a piece of single localized media. Lanate (talk) 01:35, September 8, 2017 (UTC)
 * The big reservation I have is that so few Digimon games get released outside of Japan in the first place, there's really not much point to having inertia especially when it runs counter to our actual policy (Example if an anime dub uses HighAndromon, we would have to use it according to the rules since there is no reason to not do so beyond inertia). There is also the issue of Beastmon whose Japanese name is used Cyber Sleuth as well as Heroes, presumably Masters, and I'm almost certain was being used outside of DW3 at the time as well meaning that had Fusion not been dubbed, we'd likely be using Bastemon because that's the policy. Chimera-gui (talk) 04:53, September 8, 2017 (UTC)
 * We still have our inertia, and I think I'd rather have stability over the newest flavor of the month. And I totally would have supported using Bastemon if Bastemon proved to be the most common dubbed name. Lanate (talk) 03:14, September 9, 2017 (UTC)
 * That's just it though: We're not using the most common names, we've only agreed to implement an exclusionary amendment for objectionable names, something I support only as long as it's not being misused. Beastmon is a borderline case and Laylamon, while technically one-off as well, isn't bad enough to warrant exclusion do to Layla having the same etymological root as Lilith and having a  that lines up with Laylamon as a character.  In fact hilariously enough, the name was unquestioningly accepted to the point that Kryten actually forgot to include it on the list of discussions and his only complaint at the time was exactly what you're arguing about, name inertia solely for its own sake, and even then he pointed out that any exceptions are going to be arbitrary by-definition and thus should be avoided whenever possible.  And while there have been subsequent issues since then, his arguments at the time are still completely valid now hence why I've been extremely careful about having a clear cut logic behind my own shared name amendment, eliminating redundancies in the Other Names section, and applying it both ways. Chimera-gui (talk) 04:21, September 9, 2017 (UTC)
 * I think we're talking past each other. In this vote section, I've only been arguing an inertia clause in context of a "Most common localization" rule. Unless you're referring to the inertia inherent in our current policy? Lanate (talk) 02:56, September 13, 2017 (UTC)
 * I was and fair enough. I'm just worried about the potential for abuse of such a clause. This is especially concerning do to the prominence of fan localisations following the logic of past dubs, FlameWizardmon and SnowGoblimon being two notable ones prior to Cyber Sleuth and Next 0rder respectively as well as MedievalGallantmon, which coupled with the lack of official media and more problematically a lack consistent localisation within the media we do have muddy the water on determining common localisation considerably. Chimera-gui (talk) 03:34, September 13, 2017 (UTC)

To ask my own question, how do we handle names use by both English and Japanese media now? Heroes has exposed a pretty big flaw with the current system of listing names thanks to its case and spelling shenanigans that honestly rival Fusion in my opinion which we are going to have to review in detail.

The best solution I've figured out is to institute a rule stating that primary names should not be listed in the Other Names section because they happen to appear in both English and Japanese media. Omegamon for example should not be listed because of Heroes and Next 0rder. What are your thoughts on this? Chimera-gui (talk) 03:38, September 6, 2017 (UTC)
 * I can get behind that. If it's considered a primary name, we usually go "Japanese and some American English" or something like that now, anyway. Lanate (talk) 03:09, September 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, did a quick sweep of any and all primary names in the Other Names section: RedVegimon, UlforceV-dramon, PaunChessmon Black, PaunChessmon White, AtlurKabuterimon Blue, BlackWereGarurumon, MetalGreymon Virus Species, AncientWisemon, and Algomon Ultimate have been kept as they're just different enough from the primary names. AeroV-dramon and AeroVdramon, Metal Tyranomon, Ancientvolcanomon, Beowolfmon, Flarelizamon, Doruguremon, MachineDramon, Death-X-Dorugoramon,Death-X-Doruguremon, Death-X-Dorugamon, Cannonbeemon, AtlurKabuterimon for MegaKabuterimon (Red), Deathmon for Ghoulmon (Black), and anything used in the Digimon Frontier manhua are going to need review.  I've also elected to treat "Lucemon" for Lucemon Chaos Mode and "Lowemon" as simultaneously Japanese/English names. Chimera-gui (talk) 06:04, September 7, 2017 (UTC)
 * On the subject of Other Names, I thought that if it had a section under Etymologies, it doesn't need an Other Names parameter for redundancy reasons. Lanate (talk) 00:33, September 9, 2017 (UTC)
 * I would think so as well but unfortunately G-SANtos did not agree with that assessment: here This is why I wanted his and Kryten's opinions on this matter and why I list names used in the Digimon Frontier manhua under need for review, even when they fall under usage of the original Japanese name in localized media such as with Kazemon and Grumblemon. Chimera-gui (talk) 01:00, September 9, 2017 (UTC)

Heroes
Since it's a known fact that Heroes uses the Japanese names, would anyone be opposed to just treating them as simultaneously Japanese/English names and only include them in the Other Names section if they differ from the official DRB romanizations? (e.g. the Gizumon line, and AncientWisemon, Sakuyamon (Miko)) Chimera-gui (talk) 14:13, August 8, 2017 (UTC)
 * I'd support that. Lanate (talk) 02:46, August 10, 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'd like Kryten and G-SANtos' thoughts on this as well. Chimera-gui (talk) 06:36, August 10, 2017 (UTC)
 * Do we have a list somewhere? 15:44, August 10, 2017 (UTC)
 * Also, can we move this to the central discussion page? My mind's frazzled enough as it is and having this discussion on multiple fronts over the course of years leaves me in a permanent state of confusion. 15:44, August 10, 2017 (UTC)


 * Unfortuantely, I don't have a central list as it was Charles who was adding them though you can look at his list of contributions to get an idea of why I brought this up. Chimera-gui (talk) 16:51, August 10, 2017 (UTC)
 * I was using the wiki of Heroes! as the main source, so I can try to make a full compilation if necessary.


 * On the other hand, as for the discussion itself, I honestly wouldn't know what to say. Of course they seem to do a literal translation of the names more than a dubbing, but on the other hand, there are some odd choices like SaintGargomon or PaunChessmon, and other inconsistencies like V-dramon and AeroVdramon.--Charles.929 (talk) 20:56, August 10, 2017 (UTC)
 * PaunChessmon is the Official romanization used by the DRB for both variants. As I said before, names that are different from the DRB romanizations should be listed for the sake of completion but repeats should be treated as the romanization. This is compounded by the fact that Heroes has an issue with letter case like the DRB which needs to be compensated for. Chimera-gui (talk) 22:28, August 10, 2017 (UTC)
 * For why I'm suggesting this, the Etymology section for each species' page can handle this burden by adding "and used in Japanese and some American English media." to the Japanese name.
 * As an aside, Digimon Heroes!/Collection has a list of all names at launch. Lanate (talk) 02:11, August 11, 2017 (UTC)
 * That list is going to need updating to line up with what's been released since. Chimera-gui (talk) 03:35, August 11, 2017 (UTC)
 * This is not what I understood myself to be agreeing to. I thought we were saying that the English names that were identical to the Japanese names would not be included, not vice versa. 02:35, September 13, 2017 (UTC)
 * I had said that but when I noticed the reverse had happened as well, I decided that this should go both ways and be a more general policy rather than exclusively about Heroes. Chimera-gui (talk) 02:47, September 13, 2017 (UTC)
 * I get that but I don't agree with that as the policy. To me that suggests crossflow when things seem to more be in one direction. 22:22, September 21, 2017 (UTC)
 * Except we know that the crossflow isn't exclusively one direction, Calumon and KaratsukiNumemon may be the ones at the center of this but they are hardly the only instances of Japanese media sharing a name with western media:
 * Omnimon has been used in Japanese media
 * Agunimon has been used in Japanese media
 * Lowemon spelled with a single "e" and no "u" appears in both Japanese and western media
 * Imperialdramon's Fighter and Paladin Modes have omitted the colon in their names on Japanese cards
 * Lucemon Larva has omitted the colon in its name on a Japanese card
 * This is why I cannot agree with the "regardless of localized names" part of you proposal. That is just going to create more problems if any other romanizations that happen to be the western names appear and I do not want this particular issue to crop up again, especially because of a clause that is completely arbitrary in my honest opinion. Chimera-gui (talk) 00:27, September 22, 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't see how this is a problem that demands treatment. The English name in the infobox is, by default, open to frequent change. The Japanese name in the infobox is supposed to be presented as more firm, and a separate entity. Covering every alternate name, even if it includes a name that matches the current English localized name, provides our readers with more comprehensive information.
 * At the end of the day, I want our readers to be able to identify a full list of the official names for a creature from the Japanese franchise. I don't see how omitting a single entry does that. 17:16, September 22, 2017 (UTC)
 * Kryten you know as well as I do that dub names do not change that frequently. We have had dub names be in place for decades with some still in place to this day (e.g. Centarumon). The mass name changes was a very recent thing and is not enough to justify this for me. Say if we adopted Omegamon as the official English name, we would simply move the name Omnimon under the Other Names section like we did with Persiamon but until that time comes, we do not need it listed there since it's still the current English name.  You simply do not need redundancy for readers to have a full list of the official names and in fact the arbitrary redundancy here is completely wasteful. Chimera-gui (talk) 21:23, September 22, 2017 (UTC)
 * Aegiochusmon: Holly invalidates the prior assumption that Heroes names are just the Japanese romanizations, so we have to reevaluate based on that. For my part, I'm still supporting the original policy of "first anime dub name, then first other dub name", and any treatment of "most common name" would *have* to distinguish between different works in the same setting (i.e. Fusion the anime is separate from Fusion Fighters the mobile app, or the card game, or Super Digica Taisen). 16:10, April 24, 2018 (UTC)
 * Except anime the only time we use first dub name, everyone else uses latest name:


 * First American-localization name given in anime.
 * Latest American-localization name given in manga or video games.
 * Latest American-localization name given in other media.
 * Latest other English-language name given in any media.
 * Latest English spelling given in Digimon Reference Book
 * Latest English spelling given elsewhere on Digimon Web
 * Latest English spelling given elsewhere in Japanese publications
 * Estimated English spelling based on Japanese spelling of name.
 * In fact I'm certain     has pointed this out before. Chimera-gui (talk) 16:44, April 24, 2018 (UTC)
 * That may very well be how things have practically turned out due to lax enforcement over multiple talk pages. I'm saying the policy I support, which is that for dub names, I'd prefer to use first names, due to the name over the franchise not having any kind of real stability in the West, and I don't want article titles changing all the time.
 * Whatever our policy ends up being for alternate names, I think we need to specify what we mean by "some", either in the visible text or as a comment. We have too much citogenesis in the past of this wiki, we need to be making every effort to prevent it.
 * Also, we still need to distinguish Heroes! from being treated as "Japanese romanized names", and we need to make sure we're distinguishing stuff like the Fusion-themed media from each other. 17:14, April 26, 2018 (UTC)
 * The problem is that first name across the board will leave us with Goblimon and SnowGoburimon and I am utter against that since I want name consistency for subspecies do to the fact that, as I mentioned previously, there is a higher level of stability when it comes to dub names than you seem to think. Additionally, one single outlier does not negate the fact that the majority of the names in Heroes are in fact the Japanese names albeit with some being formatted differently which itself still qualifies as names being shared as far as I'm concerned between Japanese and English media and was why I even suggested that we should note ways the same name can be formatted in the first place.  We can note specific examples of a name being used though once we can tabulate what media uses what names. Chimera-gui (talk) 18:58, April 26, 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm going to say that I care a little less about maintaining that kind of consistency, especially in the context of moving Omnimon to Omegamon.


 * And we actually don't really use latest... We tend to use earliest video game too and then put virtual pets beneath video games. Lanate (talk) 02:40, April 27, 2018 (UTC)
 * "name consistency for subspecies" -- this is not a concern that we have had before, and in most places, it's not going to be possible without artificial dubbing, which we've always been strictly against. For example, MedievalDukemon, the closest to name consistency would be MedicalGallantmon. Then, Volcamon and AncientVolcanomon, etc.
 * "one single outlier does not negate" -- it negates the claim that the game is simply using the Japanese names, full stop. (And if I'm reading the previous discussion right, we already had counterexamples in the form of AncientWisemon, the Gizumons, and Sakuyamon (Miko)). I'm a strong proponent that any rule we define needs to be fully honest about itself, and not just expect the readers to ignore examples that conflict with the rule.
 * "than you seem to think" -- can you please tone down the attacks? I've endeavored to only respond based on the topics themselves, here and on the chat, but I keep seeing a lot of attacks on good faith discussion, and it's honestly depleting my energy to participate in this project. 12:02, April 27, 2018 (UTC)
 * We have uses of both Volcanomon and PileVolcanomon in English media: http://digitalindex.ultimatedigimon.com/digimonccg/DigimonCCG_pages/Starter2/DM-0063_Volcanomon.jpg http://digitalindex.ultimatedigimon.com/digimonccg/DigimonCCG_pages/Booster3/DM-165_PileVolcanomon.jpg
 * It it willful denial to say that that the names in Heroes are not derived from the Japanese names. Remember that many believed that AncientWisetmon's name is AncientWisemon prior to the DRB establishing it differently. Gizumon can be considered another situation of alternate formatting like Imperialdramon's modes, particularly for the later stages which basically just swap a colon for a hyphen. A similar case can be made for Sakuyamon (Miko) as well given Daemon (Mantled).
 * Chimera-gui (talk) 23:43, April 27, 2018 (UTC)
 * And using Volcanomon for the subset name would require another revision to our naming policy, one which I don't think would be supportable, especially since those aren't the frequently used names.
 * It's not willful denial. Dude, quit it with that. The existence of contradicting examples means the wiki cannot claim, with honesty, that the names in set A are equal to the names in set B. They may be largely similar, but that's honestly true for a lot of the games, like Story or Dawn/Dusk. The names that are different than the Japanese sources will always be the minority. 11:36, April 30, 2018 (UTC)

ShellNumemon
As of Digimon Links, ShellNumemon seems to have been used four times, KaratsukiNumemon has been used twice, and KaratukiNumemon was only used in Heroes. What should we do here? Chimera-gui (talk) 04:25, October 15, 2017 (UTC)
 * I would put this in the section above. It depends on which policy we choose to go with -- currently it would remain Karatsuki. 13:11, October 16, 2017 (UTC)

Romanization

 * Previous discussion
 * Talk:Four Great Dragons

Attack name localization and continuity-specific attacks

 * Previous discussion
 * Talk:Gomamon
 * Talk:Apollomon
 * Talk:Meicoomon

The policy I've been using is most common localization in anime > most common in video games > most common in card games. I think MetalGarurumon has the most research I've ever done for attacks. Lanate (talk) 03:00, August 5, 2017 (UTC)

Etymology sections

 * Previous discussion
 * Talk:Paildramon

Dawn Dusk numbering
Can someone please imgur a screenshot of what numbering the damn thing uses? I'm tired of this going back and forth. 18:13, August 9, 2017 (UTC)
 * Here. Lanate (talk) 02:43, August 10, 2017 (UTC)

Some media leave out the Blank
Is it really necessary to include the Species name with with whatever indentifier omitted in the Other Names section when the phrase "Some media leave out the ___" is already included in the Etymologies section in some way? Chimera-gui (talk) 20:12, October 12, 2017 (UTC)
 * Registering my strong disapproval for stating "some media" without specifying the media, either visibly or invisibly. The whole reason we started the other names thing in the first place was to have more accountability and less handwaving. 11:38, April 30, 2018 (UTC)