Fan talk:Relationships/Archive 1

Template:Couplings
I was wondering--how do we decide which pairs get linked in the template and which don't? Obviously we can't fit all of them, but do we pick for popularity or canon-ness or what? --Doomdoom 20:31, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If they don't all fit, we'll make them fit! Only dead fish go with the flow. 20:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Couplings must have articles with substantial evidence on them before being made, and certainly before being placed on the template. However, after that everything is fair game, as far as policy is concerned, so it would be Aster's decision. 00:19, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Why don't we clear those that had non-existent pages from the Couplings page anyhow? I don't really see the point of having them there if there is nothing on the page. - Digi9346 - Your destruction is inevitable... 13:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right. We should... Only dead fish go with the flow. 14:47, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The coupling pages should have decent info/proof before they are posted on the Couplings page, let alone the template. I don't see the point of having red links on the coupling pages.  It's the fans' responsibility to add anything anyway Rad140  "RAWR?  NO UPDATES!?"   15:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Template:Couplings notice
It will be a good idea to keep this template at the top of both the article and talk page of all the coupling articles. We can use a namespace switch to make it show different messages depending if you are on the talk page or not, or blank them altogether. Even if blank, the template should still remain for possible future messages. Heck, it just saves a lot of time and effort from having to edit each coupling page.

This is also a good example of how other topical notices can be placed for other things on Digimon Wiki. Feel free to copy the same concept and try it out. -- Ned Scott 07:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

?
Hey, what doing with this page? It have only the name of the tamers in the differents Digimon seasons...
 * That's because it's only about the Tamers/DigiDestined of each season. Read the first line of the article. Rad140 Vandals have created some of the biggest disasters and most horrid things to have ever existed  (Message) 00:32, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

Couplings
Could we still have a link to the old couplings page in case people still want to see them? You do understand I'm going to have to sick my  Gatomon on you, right?  23:25, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I can't do that. Those coupling pages are in a writing style not approved of on the wiki, and it is not up to standards at all. You can always check the page history from pre-deletion (and it seems someone's already doing that and copy-pasting that info into the new pages, which I do not approve of). Only dead fish go with the flow. 01:15, July 30, 2010 (UTC)

old pages
We should go back to the old couple pages they had more information about relationships and stuff.
 * Read the above section; they weren't in the appropriate style and far too prone to speculation and shipping-bias. Lanate (talk) 06:18, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

Bias
I think I have something against this idea, for the simple fact that it's far to easy to get too hot-headed over couplings. I think there should be a general guideline: don't remove an entire page. Place your arguments on the discussion page and talk there, rather than simply removing it or placing stuff in the code, because it leads to editing wars and the downfall of this page. Lanate 03:54, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. Another possible idea could be a "counter argument" page for each coupling, so everyone would be able to have their say, without to go back and forth on the same page. -- Ned Scott 06:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Validity
I think there should be guidelines like this (these aren't official; they're my opinions)

1. There should be enough evidence to fill an entire page (i.e. Sorato/Takari pages as an example)

2. Couple is valid ONLY IF there is enough evidence of a two-way couple

3. It should be treated in a formal manner with canon examples of affection and not just the "they have similar evolutions" argument

Counter-argument is good. But the thing is that this is a wiki. Wikis are meant to be informative and consistent. Neither of which seems to be happening here.

(For your information I did NOT set up the Takari/Sorato articles.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.4.66.248 (talk • contribs)


 * Hmm, I disagree on all points but 3. I think we just need to see what is real evidence (note that there is no such thing as "an entire page" on the internet, and what isn't, rather than laying down judgements on particular couples (which would be against the point of it). I agree that the "same crests" or "their digimon are similar" arguments are complete nonsense however.


 * Who decides what is 'enough evidence' anyhow? --Blazing Chaos 20:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I should think that, "actually happened" would be enough evidence - thus Tai and Sora (at least dating), Sora and Matt (permanent, but damnit, I hate that one), Mimi and Michael, Ken and Yolei. I've heard something that the original Japanese ending also had T.K. and Kari, but that seems like an awful big mistranslation for the American version.
 * Seeing as we know what actually happened for most of these, I think the pages should be rewritten to be about the fangroups who espoused these pairings - that "this is why they believed it", and perhaps even trivia if the group did something else, like petitions, etc. As it is now, it's like the wiki is trying to convince readers of things blatantly false.
 * That's just for Adventure though. The other seasons were smart enough to not pull crap like that on us.KrytenKoro 18:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, since apparently the "explain why the fans came up with it" idea didn't fly, can I start trimming the articles that only present one-way crushes (like Daikari), and deleting the ones that are completely empty? I really don't think some of these should just be thrown up there as templates, with little to no effort to actually explain them (like Henry & Jeri - what the hell?). And I know it will probably never be listened to, but can we ask that the "evidence" actually show romantic inclinations, and not merely be friendship or philos?KrytenKoro 05:46, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you're going to start a lot of problems if you start trimming pages and cutting couples to your whims. In my opinion, so long as there is evidence (beyond "OMG aren't they kawaii together?!"), there can be a page. Becoming judgemental over couplings is a bad move. --Blazing Chaos 19:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Except that I'm specifically asking if I can remove the ones that present no actual evidence for a mutual relationship. Empty pages are actually expressly denied by the earlier consensus, and again, the point of these pages is to be an "&", not "one character gets the other against their will".KrytenKoro 04:46, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Slash?
I write and read band-fiction, specificly band-slash (however, not anime fan-fiction or yuri/yaoi,) and therefore have a rather biased eye for homosexual pairings. I am also rather shy and awkward about editing wikis (aside from on encylopedia dramatica, but that is a different story) so I probably will never contribute to this, but I sill have to ask: Would it be alright to add plausible homosexual pairings, with evidence/why the fans of the 'ship believe it exists? Rock.n.Roll.Vietnam 01:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I would say that stuff like Taichi & Yamato, or Kazu & Kenta could make a valid argument - while in the first case it is eventually proven false, there does seem to be a fair few connections with some of them. I don't know what the other editors think, but it should be okay as long as it's not something out there like "Yamato & Takeru". Honestly, I'd wish some of these pages would acknowledge (for both hetero- and homo- pairings) that not all affection or love is erotic, though these are slash-fan articles we're talking about.KrytenKoro 05:44, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * YOU SICKO!!!ENCYCLOPEDIA DRAMATICA MAKE DIGIMON LOOK LIKE A PERVERTED SHOW. HOW COULD YOU BETRAY THE WIKI!!!
 * Excuse me? Elaborate. Lanate (talk) 15:54, December 22, 2009 (UTC)

It's complicated.....BUT STILL!!!!!!!

Favorite couplings of the user
I have question: can users write their favorite couplings in their pages, even if they are fan-made or crossover? Leader Vladimir
 * Being the one who started the pages, I would not recommend it, as there is no evidence of such couplings. Fan-made and crossover kinds are only allowed in Fanfiction. Unless you can find evidence other than 'they look good/cute together', please do not. - Digi9346 22:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, well, at least can users write in their pages canon couplings they like/don't like and the reason(s) they like/don't like them? Leader Vladimir
 * You mean like, have users say if they personally like the couplings or not, in the article? I'm not so sure about that. It would be ok on the talk page, or if you wanted to write up a little rant about it on your user page or a user sub-page. We will probably explore some way to let editors write reviews of games and episodes, so that could be another option as well. -- Ned Scott 01:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Ooh, I like the reviews for episodes and games idea. This could definitely expand the wiki in a good way, particularly if there were to be several different people doing various reviews and not just one. Perhaps something for a separate debate? --Blazing Chaos 19:06, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

No I don't mean a rant. But if they put their reasons, it's possible it would lead to a rant. After all, it's just a matter of opinion whether they like the coupling or not. How about they put their favorite couplings (reasons as optional), along with other stuff? You know, characters, episodes, seasons, etc. Leader Vladimir


 * The answer is no, unless you're limiting it to YOUR OWN USER PAGE and not the actual page. Only dead fish go with the flow. 19:22, October 4, 2009 (UTC)

Proposed guideline
Starting a thread for discussion on the proposed guideline at DigimonWiki:Coupling guidelines. Feel free to give any thoughts you have on the matter, such as what other things to note, if you agree or disagree with anything listed, etc. -- Ned Scott 07:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions
From Dakari talk page:

Notes that one character says one name first also seem to be a bit superfluous - relationships are built on much more than who you view as the leader of the group. I would also include sitting together as mere coincidence, though I know it does sometimes mean something. Not much, but something.

Most moments like [the team cheering Davis during the soccer game], where the whole team is actually cheering on one member, should not be misrepresented as evidence of a relationship unless something special, like a hug or something like "You were cute!", "You're my hero!" etc. is said.

Comments on differences between versions should not be condescending - it should be limited to "In the English dub", "In the manga adaptation", etc. That there is a difference between the two in this instance only is all that needs to be said - anything more, along the lines of "it should be noted..." is only asking for argument, and should be avoided.

"The commentary (specifically "The first name she said was Davis' name." and "Ken is a wonderchild!") are specifically the kind of "hmmm" arguments we don't need." - "Evidence" should be posted as non-commentary descriptions of the events, and not in the argumentative or condescending tone many of them are written on.

I would also like to suggest the deletion of the completely empty coupling pages, and a greater effort to suggest something on the talk page before adding it. I don't want to be too hard on these pages, but we have to agree that these pages do need some kind of cleanup or copyediting, as they're in pretty sorry shape for right now.

I would actually advise editors who want to add things to look for some of the "professional" essays found on some fansites - these are much more concise, much more persuasive, and much more....good, than what we have now. I've actually seen a good one arguing against Taiora and for Sorato which convinced me, even though I'd always thought that Sora and Tai were indicated to be dating.KrytenKoro 22:04, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Retool?
I think we could actually retool these pages a bit. Instead of trying to argue specifically for romantic relationships, we could have them cover whatever form of relationship the two characters have.

Besides that, I have two suggestions for the current state of the articles:
 * 1) Articles should only mention the two characters in question, unless another character is entwined in the matter. So, Any page including Yolei should leave out mention of characters besides the other char., except to mention that Ken and Yolei get married.
 * 2) The Speculation section should be retooled to be more of the "essay" section - those fan-written, synthesis essays examining two character's relationships should be here, while the bare facts should be listed above. So, the "Speculation" section puts together the "evidence" section into a cohesive argument.
 * 3) Any type of "implication" evidence should stand up if the same method is applied to other characters in the scene or in similar scenes. So, if it claims that T.K. and Kari sitting together in Digitamamon's diner is evidence, it should consider that the same scene has Yolei and Cody sitting together as well. It would either need to admit this as part of the claim, or use it to remove the claim completely.

KrytenKoro 04:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Kazu & Kenta
Uhm.. I think this really strange because Kazu and Kenta are both boys, and in Digimon they have no homosexual, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by BramBenthem


 * They only have implied heterosex at the end of 02, so it's as logical as the rest of the coupling articles. They are actually told that they act like a married couple in one episode, as well. 08:32, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You'd probably think Tai & Matt is strange, too, but you wouldn't believe its popularity among a certain kind of fangirl. It had as big a rivalry with both Tai & Sora and Matt & Sora as those two did with each other. It was a perfect-storm triangle of shipping wars. --Doomdoom 00:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Anti-Canon Validity
It seems there is a good amount of argument around the subject of couplings (particularly in Seasons 1 and 2) involving characters who ended up canon-paired. In response, I'd just like to give one opinion on the matter: why not? Last I checked, Ken and Yolei didn't get married while they were still kids. Pairings and fanfiction can take place any time, even before the series (if the characters knew each other before its start) or after the epilogue if an author so chooses. So who's to say Yolei didn't date Davis or T.K. or whoever some time in High School before realizing she still had feelings for Ken? Even without extreme canon evidence, any coupling could be possible if timed right; people change, after all. (Not to say I don't want evidence, just stating a good author could make it work.) Just look at the differences in Tai and Sora between 1 and 2. Heck, on that note, why do people seem to believe that Sorato proves Taiora never happened? The way I recall it, Tai and Sora were implied in 1, and said in 2 to have dated in the past (when Matt is asking Tai if he's okay with it (Basing on Dub here)), be that during 1 or sometime between the two seasons. So yes, Ken and Yolei may be canon. But we as fans absolutely cannot prove that neither of them ever dated any other character between the final battle and the epilogue. Therefore, it is my opinion that all possible couplings with enough evidence to make an article should be covered, whether the characters involved have a canon pairing or not. Heart-of-Thorns 16:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Technically, and it's much more clear in the original version, Tai and Sora were best friends, and most of the stuff spun as romance in the dub was friendship in the original. Kari's really the only one they made have multiple love interests - it's just not an important theme of the series, so it's not covered in depth.
 * There's also the cultural context that suggests that, unlike America, and at the sunny-side of reality, none of these marriages were things they came to overnight. They may not have been planned marriages, but they had a crapload of time invested into them.
 * But that's just my feelings - it is possible to provide evidence for any which pairing. However, I'd much rather the article evolve into true "relationships" articles, like you see on the Inuyasha pages on wiki - covering how the two characters interact, and letting the reader judge for themselves if there's romance or not. Not even Mr. Lister's  Koromon survived intact.  20:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What Inuyasha wiki? inuyasha.wikia.com only has 108 pages, and none of the titles look like they're about relationships. And while they have no equivalent pages there, I'd rather we took on the aloof humor-based style of the Transformers wiki. --Doomdoom 00:35, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No, the Inuyasha articles on wikipedia, which have a "relationships" section on each article covering how the character interacts with other characters. That would be a much more neutral way of covering the info.
 * While I love the humor of the TF wiki, it is based on a series that strongly incorporates humor, recognizes the silliness of its concept, has much more familiarity with readers, so that the jokes actually "take", and has a huge editor-base, so that jokes can be made but there's enough people to recognize whether information is still factual. Digimon is confusing enough as it is without sarcasm, and if we tried to have a similar humor-based style, we'd have to rewrite everything. I know I'm not up for that anytime soon, but if the other main editors are... Not even Mr. Lister's  Koromon survived intact.  21:59, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Lol! Isn't that the truth? Even issues such as gender become massly disfigured. For example, Renamon says Digimon are genderless. Yet they've used gender-based pronouns. Plus the wonderful episode in 02 (The Good, The Bad, and The Digi) where they let only the girls (including Digimon) out of their cells for cards. And this included Hawkmon, who is otherwise obviously male. On that note, assuming they do have even implied if not literal genders, and Yolei's Hawkmon's is male, wtf is the 02 Silphymon? xD
 * Anyway, back on topic.. '^^ Serious question: Why is there no article for Riley and Yamaki from Tamers? While not Digidestined or children, they were pretty major characters who had a largely implied though (at least in the dub) never canonly stated relationship. I dunno.. Maybe their fanbase isn't as big as I'd like to believe.. But I know I was a Yamaki fangirl.. '^^; (To the point that this many years after Tamers ended I finally got a Zippo for the sole purpose of flicking it open and shut like Yamaki does when he's anxious, nervous, or bored. '^^ Hehe..) So yeah, thoughts? Heart-of-Thorns 23:14, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Geez, these tabs are getting so far in that all the words are crammed...xD


 * Digimon are genderless...in a technical sense, meaning that they can still act like male/female if they feel. However, since it's not actually a gender, they cannot reproduce. According to Kokana's notes, that's what he meant. As for Slyphimon, I have no idea. xP


 * As for Yamaki, while he's a major character, the problem is that he isn't a Chosen/Tamer. If we let him slide, we might as well let slide people like Takeru and Yamato's parents...which would be kinda pointless. So it's probably best at leaving it as such. Only dead fish go with the flow. 13:45, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Michi?
Michi seems to be popular in the ff.net community. Why doesn't it have a page?
 * Because it's the duty of its supporters to add a page about it and provide the evidence they can. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon  survived intact.  04:54, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

You will notice now however that a page has been put up now. Feel free to add any other evidence that comes to mind. User:Coolbloo12 (03:24, 1 February 2009)

Broader Category?
I'm not at all a 'regular' here, but after viewing some of these articles, I really do not see a "Coupling" title being the best way to list relationships between two people. A title such as "Relationships" (also previously brought up by KrytenKoro) would be much more encompassing and provoke less debate concerning speculation and canon. For example, canon would never see people who rarely interact or same-sex couples (except for maybe Mimi and Miyako...) exist. The way the "Coupling" articles work now, there is therefore no organized method to document the relationships or rivalries between two people even if they've met - ex. Yamato & Takeru obviously have a very strong relationship, though they are definitely not a couple. Under a more encompassing category, it would be a lot easier to organize and record interactions between everyone, as well as interactions between human and Digimon. Each article would have a section for factual evidence, as most coupling articles have now, as well as a section for speculation, where others could pretty much speculate on couples.

Also, not really related to the above paragraph, some of the "evidence" on aforementioned coupling pages is based solely on two characters standing beside each other *in or along with their friends/allies*. I personally do not see that as evidence at all - friends will often cluster together but still not be a couple. I can see this when there is affection being shown between the two (Yamato and Sora in the S2 Finale Poster for example) - however when it comes to the S2 Koumi image (where they are clearly in a cluster with their friends and not displaying affection via hand-holding or whatnot) or the Rukato Movie Poster (where Ruki is also reaching for Henry's hand as well as Takato's), that honestly is a bit of a stretch for me.

Just trying to voice my personal opinions as a very infrequent visitor on this site. Discussion is encouraged of course. Thanks, and Merry Christmas :) 99.246.156.184 07:45, 25 December 2008 (UTC)


 * This is a very good evaluation, I of course don't really approve a people doing this but people mearely will have to delete these types of evidence but I know it won't be this easy.User:Coolbloo12


 * I'm currently working on cleaning up what I can. I can't get everything at once (I'm still a working student) but there used to be some truly ridiculous things on the Takari article that have now been knocked off...Ironically, I think the ridiculous stuff was my fault to begin with...xD Well, I'm not a fangirl anymore. Only dead fish go with the flow. 13:42, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Format
All right, I am in a bad mood, but I have a reason.

I worked very, very hard to keep the general information at the top of each page consistent (i.e. "This page is dedicated to the and coupling..."), and instead someone came and changed the ones on certain ones (i.e. making "Davis Motomiya" and "Kari Kamiya" in bold in the Daikari article, and taking away Zoe's last name in the Junzumi article). Is there a way we can enforce a real standard on things like this? Only dead fish go with the flow. 01:18, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, with the episode articles, we've got one dedicated editor, and a plan (yet to be an MoS draft yet, though). With the card articles, there's OCD me. And with the main articles, we've got an MoS draft.
 * What I've found to work well is to spend some obsessive time on one article, making it perfect and shiny, and then go on to the other articles. That way, if anyone gives you grief, you can just say "Look at x", and keep on working. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon  survived intact.  03:49, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Evidence
If you have noticed some coupling pages are "bigger" than others. Quite frankly I'm getting annoyed by the fact that some people actually write stuff like "Her son looks a bit like him" Ever since I started my own account here I've been cleaning up the couplings page and I am freaking annoyed. Not to mention the fact that couples that shouldn't even be able to happen show up on the coupling page. I erased some of them because I felt that the couples didn't have enough evidence to support it, but they keep showing up. I'm open to ideas of couples but stuff like Henry&Alice aren't right. I just like to say that evidence is evidence, if you don't have more then 2 then you shouldn't start the page. I feel we need some standards of this, seriously...User:Coolbloo12 (03:32, 1 February 2009)


 * I know evidence is evidence, but Ned said something along the lines of "these are just for fun".


 * And besides, I've been on the fanfiction community for over a year now and you'd be shocked at how many people stick them together... Only dead fish go with the flow. 04:27, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * If you want, I can probably dig up fanfiction pairing most main characters together. My personal favorite of the bunch is Kenta x Ruki, but I have a soft spot for Taichi x Takeru.  My point is...  Fandom is strange.  You don't have half the pairings people have ever written about here.


 * ...and I will admit to having written some weird pairings myself. Including Takeru x Jenrya x Tomoki.  Because this is fandom, we can tolerate it.


 * Maybe for expansion, you can include some fandom history? Lanate (talk) 07:04, 14 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps. I'll think about it.


 * Henry x Alice, however, is not considered a "weird" pairing (although it is to me) on the fanfiction community; it's most commonly found in triple-date fanfiction with Jurato, Ryuki, and the above former...I think it's because they want to stick some girl with Jian. And I'm personally sick of seeing it, but it continually appears on the FF feeds...


 * I'll think about the fandom history section; there'll be a lot to write about that. Only dead fish go with the flow. 13:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The love triangle
Sorato or Taiora? There's a battle going on about which one should have happened and users are erasing evidence and adding useless stuff. What can be done? User:Coolbloo12 (03:35, 1 February 2009)


 * Currently I'm taking care of it. I have every coupling page on my watchlist and any minor tiny thing that gets changed has to go through me. Although I'm onesided myself, I firmly believe in fairness for both sides and thus whenever something happens I'll make sure it doesn't go bad. xD Only dead fish go with the flow. 04:30, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Colourbars?
Stumbled upon these coupling colourbars for Digimon Adventure/02 (see here, about 1/2 way down). What about adding these to their respective articles (at the bottom of the article, or maybe the top). Opinions? If anyone does want to do this, someone is going to have to help me make the html work in the wiki (as wikicode or something else). Rad140  Grrr.... I'm Wargreymon!  Arrrgh!  Grrraaww! 23:36, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Qualification
This particular rule: Rather than making it one way, it should probably state: That way, we can cover manga differences, as well as stuff that was in the Japanese version but not in the English version. Or if anyone who's watched other dubs have anything different to say. Lanate (talk) 06:11, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Anything exclusively from the English dub and prominently not in the Japanese version must be marked.
 * Anything exclusively in one version and not in another must be marked.

Digimon Couples
I was wondering perhaps if we could have couples with digimon in them ex: Agumon/Biyomon. I think digimon also can have the right to be in the coupling section. It's just an idea but I think it could be fun. Coolbloo12
 * No, we need to limit the amount of couplings possible. It's bad enough Adventure's Chosen Children alone could potentially have 132 pages; if we add the Digimon then it'll be a hectic mess. Only dead fish go with the flow. 19:11, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * A follow-up: Digimon are genderless...in a technical sense, meaning that they can still act like male/female if they feel. However, since it's not actually a gender, they cannot reproduce. Yes, I know that means they can still have a romance, but considering the whole idea that Digitamas actually come out of nowhere...I don't think Digimon were ever meant to have romances like that. Only dead fish go with the flow. 19:18, October 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * But think about Patomon (For more info go to my User Page). The perfect digimon couple. And it makes it even better since their partners make the most perfect human couple.&#39;&#39;&#39;&#39;&#39;Digigirls 4-eva&#39;&#39;&#39;&#39;&#39; 09:46, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if there is relationship evidence, it's a bit telling that you note their humans. What you are setting up is analogous to stepchildren getting heavy - the parents got married, so "it makes it even better". So, that's why we don't allow that as "evidence". 18:26, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * ........huh???? :? Digigirls Rule!!! ANd DoNT u 4gEt iT
 * The idea that "Their humans fit well together means the Digimon fit well together" is analogous to suggesting that stepsiblings get busy with each other. 06:42, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Ohhh!? So why didn't you say so. You had me all confused D. LOL. Digigirls Rule!!! ANd DoNT u 4gEt iT

Debatable Evidence
After reviewing the evidence on some coupling pages, I feel that some might not be considered as romantic evidence but evidence of bonds. For example on the Takari page it states that In "Piedmon's last jet" that T.K. wanted to be brave in front of Kari and not cry, I thinks thats a little bit of a strech. Of course it can be debatable but would any little boy want to show his fear in front of a girl in any situation? Also on the the Sorato page there is evidence from the episode "Birdramon gets firepower" that Matt screamed out "Sora come back!" I have to wonder if any other person might have screamed that out. This could be evidence of worry or a bond but not a real romantic link. There is also some debateble evidence on the Michi page in which Mimi held tightly on Tai when they were riding on Greymon, I feel this only happened so that she wouldn't fall off and can't really be considered evidence also when Tai helped Mimi off the boat, any person could do that and since only Tai and Joe was there I have to say it could be debatable the same could be said on the Daikari page in which Davis and Kari were in a dance position, it could have been in the spur of the moment. Two bits of evidence from the Kouzimi page could also be debatable, she helps him talk to Koji, that's not exactly romantic, futher more fighting together with Emperorgreymon isn't a romantic link either. I have to review a little more to spot some debatable evidence from the pages but I guess it's just some things to think about. Coolbloo12
 * Well, technically, the coupling pages are about romantic couplings, so romantic evidence. There is no concrete evidence, so anything put on those pages is up to debate, but common sense seems like a good way to go.  If something doesn't seem like one person cares about another, or is just coincidence (like holding onto someone for safety, or helping them off a boat) that is debatable. There's been talk about setting up a general friendship/relationship section (like how one character reacts to/with another), or just making notes in the article that it's not romantic.  Regardless, any evidence that you don't think is applicable should be put on the couple's discussion page, so others can review/debate. Rad140  Dear vandal, I'm not afraid to rollback your ass.   17:44, October 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed with Rad140 - sometime in the future when I have a lot of time open I'm deleting all of the couple pages and replacing them with the relationship articles. Honestly, all of the articles have issues like the one you said (Taiora included), so it's not really in a good state at this point. Only dead fish go with the flow. 23:19, October 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with Aster Selene, writing relationship articles would be the best route I think for these pages. The problem with these coupling pages is that they are so many opinions and there are so many theories that opposite forces often clash. Writing evidence allows you to see the blatant truth that one couple is better then another and allows vandals and fangirls to delete evidence they don't want seen or add irrelevant evidence. So making articles of romantic relationships would be good. But then a new problem could come up, if you write it based on your opinion or theory you may sound biased. Others may want to voice their opinion, if one of your theories goes against another, they won't take it well. We have to make sure that the articles are fair with most couples and the content is crucial, we should write based on evidence and other things you see in the show, not evidence alone. If we aren't careful another "war" could come up. I think maybe on those articles we should write a section that says other theories, thus other can voice their theory without any flaming that you see here currently. ---coobloo12 It's a life October 12, 2009
 * We tried that on the Coupling articles but it got very messy. Daikari evidence and Takari-bashing on the Takari page - not fun. I'm thinking a relationships more along the lines of http://www.haruhi.wikia.com/wiki/Kyon (look at the bottom). It's more equal and more passive, even though Kyon has been paired up with all five of those characters. Only dead fish go with the flow. 14:02, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * So are you thinking of giving each character their own page, and then summarizing their relationships/interactions with other characters, much like the Kyon page? If so, we should probably still keep the original coupling pages somewhere, but state that they are no longer looked after/maintained (lock them?) and link the the relationship/interaction pages.  Hopefully that would make everyone happy. Rad140  Dear vandal, I'm not afraid to rollback your ass.   15:15, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * That works. I can work on that. However, I would like the R-S articles to be more detailed than that of the Kyon article of course (it's short in the Haruhi wiki because the Haruhi series isn't done, but DA, DA02, DT, DF, and DS are over and done with). Only dead fish go with the flow. 21:36, October 25, 2009 (UTC)

Locking
I am now locking the Couplings pages so I can start work on the Relationships pages. New evidence added now at this time will make the job messy.

It may take me over a month to write, so please be patient. Pages will be deleted and redirected to the new pages when all of them are complete. Only dead fish go with the flow. 21:36, October 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright. Let me know if you need any help.  I'm assuming each relationship article is going to discuss that character with every other character (Chosen only?) that they could have interacted with in their respective series? Rad140  Dear vandal, I'm not afraid to rollback your ass.   16:22, October 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yep :D Only dead fish go with the flow. 19:16, October 26, 2009 (UTC)

This will be a great change! Let me know if you need any help ---coobloo12 It's a life

The pages should not be just taken over by one person and that is what you are doing in locking the page.

-TheBlueAuthor

Tomizu
A bit ilogic,but Tomizu is the couple Tommy and Zoe

Sign your posts. Not as illogical as one might think, but locked is locked and I won't add it. Only dead fish go with the flow. 19:43, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Locking
You should not lock a page it is here so that people can edit them so please unlock. There is a couple missing Koukari Koumi and Kari this can be seen in the Drama CD. This is a real couple please unlock so than couples like that can be added.

"Add additional couplings if you are able to make a page about them as well." From the Fan:Coupling page.

TheBlueAuthor


 * You mean Kouji and Hikari?


 * The idea is ridiculous; the moment was meant for pure crack in the Drama CD. In fact the whole Drama CD was made for crack, along with a huge amount of fourth-wall breaking; it wasn't meant to be taken as a part of canon plot, and it does not imply that Kouji and Hikari live in the same universe altogether.


 * I will not allow such a couple to be added, as it's not meant to be this kind of thing.


 * Also, if you mean Koushiro and Hikari, there's no reason to start a page when the only evidence you HAVE is a Drama CD. And which Drama CD are you referring to? I don't remember it...O.o


 * It will not be unlocked until the new articles are revamped, as allowing edits will add to the workload and only confuse matters.


 * The pages are almost done so be patient. They will include a more focus on relationships rather than actual romance shippings, and so you'll be able to see every Adventure/02 Chosen's interactions with every other Chosen in the same universe. That is my final word on the matter. Only dead fish go with the flow. 01:51, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Just hear me out.Plz.
Ok, I watch alot of coupling/pairing AMVs on Youtube, and some people are so sick as to say, "See that pic of TK and Kari? Imagine that was Tai." or "Hichi rules". Incested pervs. so I was thinking, just for incest lovers on this site we make a *shudder* Hichi page. I'm only doing so people can say on Youtube to those sickos, "Hey, theres a Hichi page on Digimon Wiki. Go there and drool over the sad, so very wrong couple. Go on you pervs.". I hate incest I just want those comments to stop. It can be an editable page. In fact if it is wanted it can be deleted if wanted I don't care I'm just giving an opinion to all those incest sickos.That's why I'm not signing this post incase you burn me over a suggestion.
 * We don't have the pages to cater to fetishists, we have them to document the "actual" relationships that happened in the series. You know, behavior that resembles that of humans, rather than internet porn sites. To be fair, if incestuous relationships occurred in the shows, we'd mention that, but it hasn't, so we won't.18:26, December 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well like I said it was just an opinion.


 * It's called "ecchi". Only dead fish go with the flow. 01:14, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

Progress update
I am almost done with the Adventure/02 articles. Why did it take three months? Because I had to watch the entire series again, as well as compare with the current Fan Coupling pages. I need a little more time and then I'll release those articles only as a beta. If they don't work out well, I'll just create the template for the Tamers, Frontier, and Savers ones and let other people fill it in. But I'm not sure about doing the second one, because since the Relationships articles will have more analysis and opinion than the former, it can get out of control if started by users together than if they were started in one base. We'll see. Only dead fish go with the flow. 01:14, January 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have to apologize to everyone.


 * I hate my computer.


 * It crashed destroying all of my hard work.


 * Because I know everyone's eager to see the redone articles, I'm going to create the templates and let everyone else fill it in and sort out the bias later. I can't spend another ton of months on this project. The templates should be up within the next week or two. Only dead fish go with the flow. 03:32, March 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm so sorry about that. It hurts when you lost a major project like that.  It's fine if you just release the templates; we'll try our best to sort out the bias. Lanate (talk) 02:59, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Couple Suggestion
Ok, this is just a suggestion 'cause I've seen some evidence. Sora and T.K. You can think up a coupling name. It's just a suggestion. Why are all the Digidestined leaders boys?!  21:29, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Stop, wait, Aster Selene's rewriting this section and what until she unveils her work before suggesting anything. Also, it's called Sokeru. Lanate (talk) 22:23, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

Oh right, didn't know. <'P Why are all the  Digidestined leaders boys?!  13:55, January 16, 2010 (UTC)

Relook
A lot of the stuff on this page needs to be reconsidered in light of the fact that they were childhood friends, and that Sora is clearly shown to fall in love with Matt, and have Tai encourage her. Yes, there's a good deal of evidence that there might have been something there, but a lot of it is just going to be them being best friends. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 04:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * True, but childhood friendship is often a precursor to romance in fiction :) -- Ned Scott 05:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, but especially in this case, its unreasonable to interpret stuff such "You're back, Tai!" as something with romantic overtones.
 * (Plus, childhood friends are also often in fiction the person you couldn't imagine being involved with.) Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 05:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with the 'best-friends-falling-in-love' part, and even do it sometimes in my own fics. But I think that about the "You're back, Tai!" part we should leave there. I think that perhaps if she is the only one saying it, then it is valid... I think. Thoughts?
 * And what's with the Mr Lister's Koromon thing *scratches head* ? - Digi9346 05:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess it's fine to leave that there, but especially in this case, where it's reinforced in 02 that she doesn't really have romantic feelings for him, and he's okay with that, we need to keep in mind when we're misinterpreting simple friendship as romance. Sometimes, people are just polite.
 * It's a reference to a line from the Red Dwarf character Kryten:


 * Rimmer: Look at it. All our possessions, all our valuables, completely destroyed. Between fire, flood, and impact, we've lost damn near everything.
 * Kryten: Well, at least Mr. Lister's guitar survived intact.
 * Cat: (breaks guitar over his knee)
 * Kryten: Not even Mr. Lister's guitar survived intact!

I grew up on Red Dwarf and Digimon, so when I chose my first screenname I just put them together. I even have an image of Kryten holding a Koromon somewhere. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 06:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that even in Digimon Adventure, when they were just kids, you can see (although nobody wrote it here) that they care about each other, more than about anybody else. I wouldn't call that just childhood friendship, actually I would call it a childhood crush, that became something bigger. If you would ask, even a person who doesn't watch or like Digimon:"Aren't Taichi and Sora perfect for each other?", he would say yes, in 99% of the cases. Some little things (and not just little things) in the movies and in the serias (including Digimon Adventure Zero 2), prove that there is truely something. And that something, was ruined only by the Japanesse writers in the Digimon Adventure Zero 2, when they suddenly, out of nothing desided for Sorato (only because Matt was the most popular guy in the Digimon Adventure, and Sora was a more loveable girl then Mimi). Nobody even thought about those two, untill they were shown together in the anime. I think that the writers of the dubbed version did the best thing they could by throwing partly that out, because many, many fans still think that Taiora is the combination. And I think so to... And I don't think, that Taichi didn't care about the way things turned out, I think that he was hurt but what could he do? :/ I wish that the dubbed version (at least the dubbed), could change that story to the end, oh well...
 * Please remember to sign your posts! xP
 * Anyway, I actually think otherwise. No matter what the fan base is, Nimoy still should not be perverting and twisting the lines to satisfy his own desires for Taiora. Besides, although Sorato may not have been a popular couple, it still does not mean that it's bad for them to change it. They should take fan couplings with a grain of salt, but if it's their idea, let them have it.
 * Besides, do you have any *real* evidence that Sorato was unpopular in Japan? Of course it was booed in America where the dub twisted all the lines, but in Japan...
 * And I think you're exaggerating the "99%" line. I don't think they're perfect, per se, and to be honest, in real life, best friends don't always become couples. In fact, the best friend turns out to be the last person you want to date...
 * Read "blush..." maybe? Only dead fish go with the flow. 01:11, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * In any case, I think it's acceptable to put the Christmas scene in there, as long as it comes with a detailed analysis, does not cite any specific lines, and states that it is from the English dub, along with an analysis of the original Japanese scene. Only dead fish go with the flow. 01:19, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Personally, AS, I don't think you have to follow the format that was there if you don't want to. The kind of essays you had on your site would be much more informative, if integrated well, and would read less banal than the bits of trivia that most of the articles are now. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon  survived intact.  01:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually I watched the Digimon Adventures, the original version and also the dubbed version. Unfortunently I only could find the dubbed version of the Zero 2, so I just watched a few original episodes, and I'm quite aware of everything, because although I haven't seen it, I've read about it. Maybe it is my love for the couple speaking, but I don't think they did something wrong?, because although those people make animes, we are the ones who will decide is it good or not, and how much population will it gain. I think they are just aware of that. I didn't know that only the Japanese oppinion mattered... And I'm not quite well informed about the situation there, that was just a statement I made as my personal oppionion, which doesn't have to be right, but I personaly see things like that, just like anybody else. Anyway... I didn't ever consider them "best friends", more like they are childhood love to each other, than friends, again... It's the seeing things my way.
 * This is just a personal gripe, but -- if you're going to "it's my opinion, it doesn't have to be right", then don't even start a discussion. As for "it's the fan's right to decide what happens" - well, you could maybe make that argument if you were paying to see the story, but otherwise, it's just silly sentimentality.
 * But anyway, that's just a personal gripe, I'm not saying your comment was wrong. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon  survived intact.  23:20, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I thought that discussion are made of personal gripes and oppionions... My oppionion is connected in some matter with the truth, with the truth as I see it. And you're discusing me about that because you see the "truth" in your way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't discussion supposed to be about personal statements? It's not like "couplings" is a strictly theme, in which we must concentrate on the facts and only the facts, and do not pull anything out of them that "may not be the truth". :/ Anyway, about the viewer-maker relationship... That may be the way as you see it, but when they published something like that, that wasn't just published for them, it was also for the public, so, in some matter, I think, our oppionion should be considered. Not in a way that should change the whole story/seria, but still... It matters.
 * Once again, please sign your posts.
 * Yes, fan opinion matters but that does not mean the author should also listen to every single opinion given by fans! Is J.K. Rowling going to make Harry and Hermione smooch all over each other just because 50% of the fan population wants her to? It's the creators' dream, let them live it out! And if they wanted to share this dream with Americans, is it right for the American dubbers to twist it to their own ends? Even if that's what the American population wants?
 * Especially considering most of the Taiora dialogue/"romance" came from the English dub. The Christmas episode itself had no intended Taiora in it.
 * Once again, while fans should be considered, they should not completely twist the plot so that the creators' dream is ruined.
 * And besides, if the author did nothing but listen to the fans, then Haruhi and Kyon would get together and the world would end. And nothing would make sense (joking, joking, that's just my YukiKyon fangirlism again). Only dead fish go with the flow. 19:36, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

02 opening
Tai and Matt aren't even "standing next to each other" in 02's opening; Tai's just in front of Matt. And that's really too tenuous a connection, especially considering the image was touted as 'Sorato' proof, as Matt & Sora are actually next to each other. --Doomdoom 23:04, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Episode 50
Regarding the abrupt deletion of the context under "Episode 50: A Million Points of Light" was because:


 * It downright states that "Oddly, considering Matt and Sora seemingly have two kids together in the epilogue, Sora's standing nowhere near Matt; she's next to Joe." It is made quite clear that Yamato/Matt and Sora are married. That statement alone tries to claim that because Sora is standing next to Jyou/Joe and not Matt than she not with Matt anymore. I do not believe Sora and Matt had children together, because if the would have it would have surly mentioned it like it mentioned Ken and Yolei was married and had kids.
 * "Sora is still very close to Joe." Again, this is trying, or at least implying, to state that Matt and Sora are not married at the end of the season. Whether you accepted or not, Sora/Yamato is canon. Plus, just because certain people are not married does not mean that a certain couple is is together, thus not being "proof."

That being said, I will remove that part unless something can be proven for that aspect.--Kid Dolomite 02:33, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Toei Animation actually confirmed Sora and Yamato married, so anything otherwise is fangirlism. Only dead fish go with the flow. 16:10, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Teeeechnically, isn't stuff the creators say that isn't in the show itself only subjectively canon? I'd say it is in this case, but in general. --Doomdoom 16:31, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

"arrows of love"

 * Cupid's arrows are arrows of love, not Angewomon/Angemon's.

Yeah, tell that to Tentomon. Just saying what the characters said. --Doomdoom 22:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * You're misinterpreting. Tentomon was talking about the arrows in reference to Cupid's in order to insinuate the fact that they wouldn't hurt Taichi and Yamato, not that they loved each other. Only dead fish go with the flow. 22:47, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Interpretation is verboten on shipping pages, so I didn't do any. Just reported that, literally speaking, Mrs. Izumi compared the arrows to Cupid's and then Tentomon directly referred to the arrows of hope and light as 'arrows of love'. Facetiously, obviously, but I never wrote anything about what his intended meaning was, just the text-text. --Doomdoom 15:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * By putting it on a shipping page you're insinuating that it's a sign of love, so if you want to keep it factual don't put it on a ship-page. Only dead fish go with the flow. 16:09, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Wait, so... what facts can go on ship pages short of canon declarations of "I love you in a romantic manner and I wish to marry you"? Because it's all insinuation. I thought the idea was dry facts that could maybe possibly from some angle be interpreted in more than one way, including a pro-ship way. (episode 49: T.K. tried to protect a teammate = evidence of true love holy crap) --Doomdoom 16:42, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This is all speculation but there's a limit as to where we can take this. Protecting someone: it did have an intent of some amount of affection, romantic or not. Intepreting a line totally meant for a different purpose altogether is another story. Only dead fish go with the flow. 17:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Izzy&Mimi
In Episode 14, Mimi falls on Izzy, and the latter blushed. Am I right??
 * Blushed? And it's not like she controls who she falls on. Only dead fish go with the flow. 02:10, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Well, it does damn count! This is Koumi we're talking about! Digigirls Rule!!! ANd DoNT u 4gEt iT 19:24, January 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Stop being a fangirl. We are trying to be realistic... Only dead fish go with the flow. 19:27, January 11, 2010 (UTC)

Well sorree, am not aloud to express my feelings about a cute couple. Gomen if this is annoying but I just love to exaggerate LOL. Why are all the Digidestined leaders boys?!  21:58, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I had a bad day at the time of the post. Yes, you can express your feelings about this couple but this is a wiki and we are sticking to facts. Only dead fish go with the flow. 00:42, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

It okay. LOL. I just luve...luve. If it's cute, I like it. Why are all the Digidestined leaders boys?!  22:44, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

Interesting pic
Once again, I may be seeing things, but doesn't it kinda look like Palmon is making a move to hug Joe's leg? "I was thinking we should try to remember what it was like when we were kids." "It's a different world now, Jack." "Yeah, I know."  22:58, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

I wrote down about the evidence that Joe might have a crush on Sora in the manga version why was it removed?

Why
The grammar was bad, and I couldn't understand any of it. I don't know what you wanted to say. Please organize your work and use proper grammar rules. Only dead fish go with the flow. 17:30, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

then help?
I'm Dutch so my English is not perfect maybe help me out a bit then? Joe/Sora was kinda implied in the volume 2 of the manga version - Joe wanted to wait till the others came back because he and Sora got separated from the rest Sora wanted Joe to take on the leader position of the group he refuses and Sora responses with ' the leaders get all the girls' and she winks at him. the next panel Joe gets all brave and acts like a leader

When they defeat all the Bakemon they hold hands and Sora tells Joe he's the best leader ever'' and both of them blush in the next panel.


 * I can get all that in, but I need a citation (what chapter, page, etc.) before I can put it in, because we can't take any info for granted. Only dead fish go with the flow. 20:27, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I did my best to fix up the grammar, etc. Hope it's easier to understand. It still needs more sources.--Rad140 23:23, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Problems
"When Kari is laying on the bench it shows T.K. looking at Kari Sadly showing that he was concerned about her befor Tai made him promise to protect her. The others leave looking for medicine for kari and T.K., by the evidence thus far in the series, would be likely to join in with the "bigger kids". However, Tai tells T.K. he's the only line of defence left if something happens, so T.K. gladly stays behind. "
 * seems to be outright speculation, and not very promising.

"Some people speculate that T.K.'s attraction to Kari is simply a result of the promise he made to Tai to protect her, a promise he then carried on to protect her all his life. Further to this, T.K. flat-out agrees to it. The fact that Tai knowingly makes T.K. promise to protect Kari, when naturally the Digidestined would protect each other regardless, suggests that Tai knew there was something, or at least the potential for something, between T.K. and Kari, hence he intended to help them. Also T.K. does not want Kari to see him scared because he wishes to look brave. In the same episode, Piedmon suggests they are "falling for each other". One can take this literally, as the line was uttered when T.K. and Kari are both in freefall, or figuratively - the latter of which suggests that Piedmon observes (or merely jests about) T.K. and Kari's special relationship. "
 * This has some potential, but really only the part about T.K. wanting to be brave in front of Kari. Taking a villain's taunt as evidence of romance, or an over-protective older brother's request to protect his sister as evidence of "being in the know" is pulling at too many straws. At best, it should be said that Tai specifically asked T.K. to protect Kari, and T.K. accepted.

"Even before he met her, when he was aware that there would be an eighth child, he remarked how enjoyable the new kid would be if he or she were his age, so that they could play together. It appears his wish is fulfilled, as Kari is only a few months older than he is. "
 * This is completely irrelevant to everything.

"They are shown standing together in the both Opening Themes of Digimon Adventure 02."
 * This is actually more do to the "order" of the original digidestined:


 * Tai
 * 1) Matt
 * 2) Sora
 * 3) Mimi
 * 4) Izzy
 * Joe
 * 1) T.K.
 * 2) Kari


 * The new digidestined replace the old six, and Ken is added on as the "ninth" digidestined.

"Most people, upon meeting a friend they haven't seen in years, will exhibit a shy response (citation needed)."
 * Even the text recognizes that this claim is ridiculous.


 * The notes from episodes 01, 07, and 13 are actually good - this is the kind of thing these articles should strive towards.

"TK and Kari are shown sitting together in one table (right) while the others sit on anther table (left)."
 * This may have some use, if the parallel to Mimi and Michael sitting together is mentioned. However, that would also indicate something between Yolei and Cody, and Davis dying alone and unloved. Naturally, the parallel is faulty.

"After Ken's self realization and the end of the Digimon Emperor's control over the Digimon World, while they are cleaning up Primary Village, Veemon notices that he can't digivolve. Kari and T.K. decide to run off and try themselves. However, Gatomon is perfectly aware that she cannot digivolve, due to the lack of Kari's crest power, and immediately quotes "No go for Gato," meaning "Don't even bother." There must have been a second pretense to this, as if there wasn't T.K. would have gone himself regardless."
 * Or maybe they just remembered that Kari is the Adventure equivalent to Calumon. I don't remember the exact scene right now, so I'll need to check, but this still feels like picking at straws to me.

''"Their Digimon have Angel forms, and their Armor forms are very similar in looks, and even have a default shared attack, something not many have."

As for their Japanese names, they are both spelled Hikari and Takeru phonetically in English, and both are spelled consonant-vowel-k-vowel-r-vowel.

"Yagami Hikari" translates as "Light of the Eight Gods" in Japanese, and "Takaishi Takeru" translates as "Tall Rock Mountain". Mountains represent strength in most Asian religons. Both of their names represent high and celestial things."''
 * That their evolved and armor digimon have similar forms and almost always fight together, and that Azulongmon speaks of Hope and Light being together should be mentioned. The nonsense about the English spelling is, again, pulling at straws (especially since that's not how they ended up being spelled in English or Japanese for that matter), and most of the characters have names like that. Sora's name is even closer to Hikari's - if we followed this line of reasoning, maybe Sora and Kari were intended to get together?

"It is speculated, based on the epilogue to Digimon Adventure 02, that TK and Kari are married 25 years after the end of the series. "
 * Things like this should never be added, unless you're simply talking about the fan movement. In that case, details, details, details. As I've said before, I think these pages would do best to have some information on the history of fans shipping the various couples, and how those reacted to new episodes, whether they died out, etc. We can allow some persuasion of our own to be on these pages, but it's inappropriate to have nothing factual within them.

There, are you happy KD? I just complained about nearly everything on this page.KrytenKoro 07:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Seriously, I only need one or two people to discuss these with me, and I can get to work on them.KrytenKoro 07:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

How about when Willis kissed Kari in Digimon: The Movie, Tk dropped his mouth and raised his arm. He was standing behind Kari and Yolei. Yeah, but what would that mean? You could use the same argument to say he had a crush on Yolei... Only dead fish go with the flow. 04:07, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Well...
Next time you criticize anything on this page maybe you should go to the main source instead of this page. I accept all criticism of my webpage's theory on my guestbook where the info for this page originally came from.

The webpage is here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rainbow sprinkle (talk • contribs)


 * The point of criticizing this page is to improve it. -- Ned Scott 04:30, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Regarding CD Drama: Adventure 02, Original Story etc.
Thanks for fixing my mistake with the whole CD Drama image thing, KrytenKoto... I'm not sure where I thought of that from in the first place. You're right, that would be uncomfortable, if not awkward. Don't worry, I won't add dumb like they're standing next to each other or anything. :) --Rad140 22:08, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

digimon T.K and Kari
hey just to let u know T.K and Kari get married because in digimon Tamers Takato's teacher sounds like Kari and Kari became a teacher and she has the same last name as T.K !! i looked into it. -Digimon luver <3


 * Uh, no?


 * Takato's teacher, in the English dub, has the same voice actress (Lara Jill Miller). That was for the purpose of needing VAs, not to imply they got married. Also, the teacher's last name is Asaji.


 * Where are you getting your theories? Only dead fish go with the flow. 03:16, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Final poster
The final poster seems very realistic (i.e. it's drawing style is the same of the anime) but it also seems to have been modified exactly in the vertical direction of T.K. and Kari's hands. Would it be possible to informe the official source of this picture?


 * The picture - the exact file down to the pixels - is all over the Internet so sadly I can't give an "original source". While I can't verify the origin of the picture, I can give an explanation for the reason of the appearance of editing. The poster was scanned via scanner to computer, and it had been folded - when it was scanned, there were two extremely huge creases. The first is the one you pointed out hovering over Takeru and Hikari's hands; the second is one over Gomamon and Jou (admittedly, it also hovers somewhat close to Miyako and Ken's arms, but notice it's a little too far to affect the hands themselves, and it's a long shot). Note that the creases are spaced evenly. And I don't see someone making that huge of a mistake in Photoshopping with creases like that...


 * http://cass_lillymon.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/neat.jpg


 * I'm aware the one hosted above is a Takari website...see, the version floating around the Internet is the Photoshopped one done by Eliana (the one who supplied the very famous Crest of Kindness picture). On her website, which has been taken down as of about a year ago, she posted both versions of the picture: the original and the one she Photoshopped herself specifically to remove the creases. Back then the original used to be madly popular but around now the Photoshopped version is the only one available except for the one above...


 * Hope this helps. Only dead fish go with the flow. 04:32, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

okay, did they or didn't they?
someone told me in the manga that gatomon says they married and so did the original japanese anime. is this true? i neeed to know!!!
 * No, they did not. 21:18, August 22, 2011 (UTC)

Ep 12?
Shouldn't we add in that when Davis is falling after being hit by Starmon's attack, Yolei jumps and catches him? Digigirls Rule!!! ANd DoNT u 4gEt iT 14:43, January 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * No adding or deleting. And that doesn't count, as Miyako was likely acting on reflex. Only dead fish go with the flow. 20:44, January 9, 2010 (UTC)

misc talk
I think we need to set some rules down on the couples pages. While they are intended to present an opinion, they should still be factually orientated and written professionally. All the random interjections like "hmm" hardly help this page. --Blazing Chaos 18:28, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

BramBenthem 15-07-08 9:45 (GMT +1)

Daikari is absolutely my favourite coupling of all. That's the reason I've three new reasons drawn on their page that they get coupled.
 * I'm sorry to say that, while there may be evidence of feelings between them in the series, it is made clear that they don't become an actual couple.68.94.221.113 08:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * And it is quite clear that the only couples that happened are Sorato and Kenyako. Everything regarding couples besides the two canon ones are opinions. If one set of people are not allowed to state them, then neither should other groups of non-canon couples. --Kid Dolomite 11:00 PT, 15 July 2008

I know. =( But I'm going ahead whit find reasons for them! BramBenthem 10:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Just because they don't become an actual couple doesn't mean that we have to ignore the evidence of the coupling. This is the reason for these pages in the first place. - Digi9346 10:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

But it's funny to talk about it and it funny too, to place reasons voor them, isn't? And who has edit my reasons from the movie? The first half of te reason (in part to annoy Davis) does'nt belong to the page? Doesn't it? BramBenthem 15:14, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks to Digi9346 for placing the picture of Daikari in Class directly on the page! BramBenthem 09:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * No problem, anytime. My only problem is not being able to find scenes to throw in. If you know any that you think appropriate, don't hesitate to tell me. I just need the episode number and a clear description of what the scene should look like... maybe I should throw this into my profile page too, for good measure... - Digi9346 09:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

On YouTube there are a lot of video's of Digimon, but the quality is not very good. BramBenthem 13:49, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I've 4 new reasons placed! And @ Digi9346, I know how to upload pictures and place them in the text! My changes: 3 new episodes, 17, 18 & 21, and the fourth reasons on "Other Notes" comes from me! BramBenthem 15:05, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Good job. I guess maybe I'll just upload better quality pictures. Give me a day or two to get them. - Digi9346 15:13, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * ...She specifically says she is sending the picture to make him jealous. Even Kari isn't a perfect angel, she can have her practical jokes.
 * I realize this page is speculation. HOWEVER, what I was responding to was Bram's claim that "they get coupled". They don't. While it's not confirmed who they do get together with, it's confirmed that it's NOT each other, in at least one continuity.KrytenKoro 21:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm going to quote the Takari page "It is speculated, based on the epilogue to Digimon Adventure 02, that TK and Kari are married 25 years after the end of the series". If they are allowed to put that in that section, and no, they didn't get together, then so should any couple that doesn't have a canon couple it "competes" against. Either it's allowed up there or remove that part from the Takari page.--Kid Dolomite 3:09 PT, 16 July 2008
 * Then remove it from the Takari page, but don't try to misrepresent the issue - we have an EXPLICIT claim from at least one version of the continuity that they never got together, and they don't even appear together in the oft-qutoed poster, and have no special togetherness episodes.KrytenKoro 22:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Well that one section has been around for a while, so why not give this page a chance to share its opinion. You obviously didn't have a problem with it being there so why have a problem with it now?--Kid Dolomite 4:37 PT, 16 July 2008
 * Do you listen to yourself? No, I DON'T "obviously have no problem with it" - but I stick to recent changes in order to fix up what people are interested in.KrytenKoro 21:41, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

@Digi9346: Jou have just uploaded the wrong picture for episode 17, you have placed there the same picture as 21. I've uploaded there the good picture, so you can make it good quality. BramBenthem 07:10, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I've make 10 new reasons, 3 new episodes, and one picture to the page! =) BramBenthem 11:03, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Good job Digi9346, for making a better picture and quality. I think the Daikari page is a real strong opponent for the Takari page. The Daikari page has a few less reasons then The Taikari page. All Daikari fans: "Search for more reasons for the coupling between Davis Motomiya and Kari Kamiya! =D"BramBenthem 11:12, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm going tomorrow on a three weeks vacation to Italy, won't be online. ;) BramBenthem 17:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


 * That's too bad. You have been a great contributor thus far. See you in three weeks! - Digi9346 18:16, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm back Digi9346! Mwoah, not really, but tomorrow I went to home. Maybe you ask yourself How Can He Be Online? I'm in a office of a friend from my parents in Italy, and I can get there on The Internet. BramBenthem 08:52, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Welcome back is all I can say. Careful with what you throw in from now on. I'll still provide the pics, but some of the editors might think some stuff irrelevant and remove it. So be careful with what you put in the page. - Digi9346 14:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

About the Tokyo Pop Manga
It should be noted that the Manga has no connectivity to the actual series, as it was written by a different group people from the anime. I am going to put that nothing in it should be taken as canon. --Kid Dolomite 11:05 PT, 15 July 2008
 * ....seriously? You're bringing "canon" into this? It is canon, just a separate canon from the 02 anime, and it HAS been officially endorsed by Akiyoshi (IIRC). That's more than enough to put it alongside "They happen to talk to or focus their vision on each other a few times throuhout the series." And if you seriously want to bring canon into this, we have to throw out the movie and a few of the CD Drama's as well.KrytenKoro 21:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Several things in the manga were different from the anime, including it being condensed to two volumes. Since the anime is the main source of canon for this fandom, it should be noted that the manga was written by different people. The original writers had nothing to do with it and thus it should be noted that it is a separate continuity.--Kid Dolomite 3:06 PT, 16 July 2008
 * ...and AGAIN, the movie is also strictly out of canon, for the much realer fact that it simply cannot happen in the anime's continuity due to glaring errors. The anime is NOT the main source, anyway - the mangas came before the anime, and the games even before that. The anime is simply the one that's on TV.
 * "Being condensed to 2 volumes" does not make something uncanon - unless there is specific evidence of something being in contradiction to the original Japanese material, there's nothing to make it uncanon.
 * I am well aware that the third movie is set out of canon, not sure if there is a note about that on the page, though. And I'm going to say you got your facts from BS(dot)com. The Adventure and 02 manga came after the show. The only two mangas that came before the show were C'Mon Digimon and V-Tamers. Those are canon in their set universes. The Tokyopop manga was written by a different group of people, why can't there be a note about that?--Kid Dolomite 4:34 PT, 16 July 2008
 * .....I was TALKING about V-Tamer, which INCLUDES Davis and Kari within it (as a reference to 02), AND mentions Kari liking T.K. better. It is also the original continuity. Now, what I am suggesting is that you don't try to turn this into a "canonicity" fight, because you will not win. The whole point of these pages is to not be obsessed with canonicity.KrytenKoro 21:41, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * There's also the issue that the manga has been approved by Akiyoshi/Toie/etc. Thus, it is canon. Whether it is in continuity with the 02 anime is the point you are trying to claim - and for this, the movie has the same problem, in much greater quantity. Then you have the problem of the V-Tamer 01 manga, where Kari is shown more attached to Takeru - and this is also canon (in fact, more "canon" then the anime itself, as the anime was based on this manga).
 * The anime was not based on the manga. Maybe for some series like Naruto and Inuyasha, but for Digimon, the manga was written after the show ended. And I've never once read about Akiyoshi agreeing to it. Maybe letting them use the name, probably due to copy right reasons, but not the full permission to add things to it. If you can provide a link where he specifically states that, then do so. Also, it helps to check facts as the V-Tamers manga has nothing to do with the TV show, except for a crossover they had. It would be impossible for them to be closer as they didn't exist in that continuity.--Kid Dolomite 4:34 PT, 16 July 2008
 * ...For goodness sake, read what I said. V-Tamer 01 was the first fiction in the series, the anime is derived from it. Taichi appears in both, they have several crossovers, and there are several references between the two fictions. The anime even has its name as a derivation from the manga, for name recognition.KrytenKoro 21:41, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, if you really want to bring "canon" or "continuity" into this, and not just allow any official Digimon publication, nearly all of this page would be axed. The sole reason page's like this exist is because allowances have been made to ease the requirements for verification and proof - but that doesn't mean that they can be applied selectively.KrytenKoro 22:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * For that matter, none of the movies were made by the same people who made Adventure 01, and Adventure 02 was made by different people than Adventure 01. Perhaps we should throw out everything but the first anime as well? Then again, Digimon Adventure (movie) came out before both of them, was produced by different people again, and was the first appearance of Kari. Should only this iteration of her be allowed, because the other's are considered "uncanon" with respect to this?KrytenKoro 22:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Why is it that there can't be a note that the TokyoPop manga did not have anything to do with the anime? KrytenKoro, is has been established that the manga was written by a different group of people. Hiroyuki Kakudou, the main director of adventure and 02, was with the anime writing staff since the beginning. While your claims that they may have had different writers through the two main seasons maybe somewhat true, Hiroyuki Kakudou was always the director. About ignoring 02, I will ignore that part as I'm deducing you're angry about something, which is of no concern to me. Davis saying Kari didn't marry him was only in the English adaptation of the manga; why should that even be mentioned? It has no connection to the anime, which is the prime source of canon for Adventure, 02, tamers, frontier, and savers, so it should not even be noted. He did not state whether he did or did not marry her in the anime, the prime source of canon. I will state it quite clearly, why should the manga have any connection to the canon anime as it was written by different people? It had the go from Disney.--Kid Dolomite 1:36 PT, 22 July 2008
 * Because it is argumentative, and in context, it is misrepresentative - it implies that in the anime, they did get together. To be neutral, all that needs to be said is that it was the "manga adapatation" - "adaptation" gives enough of an implication that the work is not perfectly faithful, without sounding like it's some fan-fiction which bandai and toie have denied.
 * I have also explained before why any material produced within the Digimon franchise should be fair game - the goalposts of who produced it and when are, again, getting very tiring, especially in light of the fact that some material produced by these people has been said by them to be out of continuity. The exact director or author for a work in the franchise is not only irrelevant, it's not always factual (they may be credited as such, but you've heard of ghostwriters, right? Digimon has used them often as well). (For that matter, you are wrong - Hiroyuki Kakudou was not the director for each installment of Digimon Adventure, only the TV series itself).
 * As for your constant assertions that I'm biased or angry about something - they are getting very tiring, and they are not at all appropriate for this wiki. Knock it off, you've been asked before. The only thing that gets me ired is speculation and mistruths trying to pass themselves off as facts. Maybe you should think of working on more than one article, instead of constantly getting into fights about this one?KrytenKoro 20:55, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * After reviewing your recent edits, I understand that you will not allow "non-canon" evidence to be on this page unless you leave Digimon Wiki, and we don't want that to happen. Therefore, I removed all non-canon or dub-only info from the page, and will be examining the Japanese versions of the episodes to verify that the claimed instances occur in the Japanese episodes as well. Furthermore, as speculation is by definition un-canon, it will be removed as well. I hope this is an acceptable compromise for you.KrytenKoro 21:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * First of all:
 * Because it is argumentative, and in context, it is misrepresentative - it implies that in the anime, they did get together.
 * Prove it. Regardless of what people believe, T.k. and Kari did not get together; neither did Davis and Kari. It is things like this that make me see you as a shipper, Kryten.
 * Secondly, why haven't there been other edits for pages that include speculation? Sure, you critiqued the Takari page, which I applaud you for, but so far there has been no edits. Let me guess, computer problems? Why is it that only this page has gone through your reform? The others have been left perfectly in tact. So why only this page, Kryten? Seems bias, if you ask me.
 * Further more, I thought these coupling pages were suppose to be opinions from the fans. Since you're not a fan of this couple, why are you here? I quote:
 * This is a place created especially for people to put their opinions for their respective couplings. This will show in time, evidence for each couplings. Speculations may be placed in its allocated sections. Please, however, not mess up another coupling's section for whatever reason you might have. Add additional couplings if you are able to make a page about them as well.
 * I haven't broken any rules here; I stated my opinion, and put the speculation in the appropriate part. You, however, just came along and made edits as you saw fit. You deleted stuff because Yolei and T.K. were arm wrestling and Davis and Kari holding each other. Obviously, some fans see that as an opinion, yet you deleted it all willy-nilly. It's against the rules, you know.
 * As for the TokyoPop manga, I am well aware they have a location in Japan, as one would expect from any dubbing company, still, they are an American company. Maybe I am somewhat biased against it, due to me being disappointed in the job on how awful they adapted it and derailing some of the characters. Still, all I asked at first was a note saying how the manga was handled by different people from the ones who wrote the anime, but you got offended and deleted that part.
 * I would say more but honestly, you're taking this to seriously. This is a page for opinions, after all.--Kid Dolomite 7:33 PT, 22 July 2008


 * Exactly. We have no proof that T.K. and Kari got together, and we have partial proof that Davis and Kari did not get together. So your comment, which implies that the manga contradicts the anime by not having Daikari, is misrepresentative. This is why I've been suggesting simply "In the Tokyopop manga adapatation" - which communicates that the scene is only in this, without implying it's an outright contradiction. I've explained this several times now.
 * Because it was requested by all the other editors that suggestions be made on the talk page first. I only made removals on this page because you demanded that only canon evidence be presented, so I was trying to reach compromise. Are you willing to allow the "If it's been in official material, it's okay" guideline that the other editors agreed upon, or do you want to keep harping about canonicity?
 * I'm here because I'm an admin on this wiki, and it's my job to make sure the pages are clean, readable, and informative. I'm trying to help cleanup this page, without removing it (I've actually spent today looking for fansites that have more evidence or better essays, and will be adding some evidence soon). On a related note, your continuous assumptions of bad faith DO break the rules, and if they don't stop soon you CAN get temp blocked for it.
 * It's hilarious how you claim I broke the rules by removing "evidence" that relies on straw-picking to be usable (i.e., not acknowledging that T.K. and Yolei were doing something similar, and how that is proven to mean diddly-squat), and then constantly harp on me for trying to tone down a disclaimer on later info.
 * They didn't derail the characters, and they didn't do an awful job adapting it. I listed all the major edits, as the most were minor omissions, and even then, they were really only done when the original anime was poorly explained (the whole Daemon imbroglio (and getting rid of him) and the Dream Dimension? That's poor storytelling at best, and messy deus ex machina at worst. And Davis not having dreams? WHAT THE HELL? If he's so damn obsessed with Kari, how the hell did that not pop up? Or being a soccer champion or selling noodle, which he mentions again at the end of the episode!)
 * Yes, it's a page for opinions - routed in the material, and without a condescending or argumentative tone. And above all, still honest. If "evidence" relies on leaving out the full story, or in any way misrepresenting the situation, it needs to be removed.
 * I'm just going to tell you know, that if you can't learn to stop attacking other editors as "biased", you're not going to last here long. We're very lax here, compared to other wiki's, but if you make yourself insufferable, you can still be removed.KrytenKoro 04:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * To reply:


 * Exactly. We have no proof that T.K. and Kari got together, and we have partial proof that Davis and Kari did not get together.


 * Then why is there speculation on the Takari page that they might have gotten married? I've stated before, that's one persons views, who wasn't part of the main series. I don't know how clearly I made it, but that was written by someone else that wasn't part of the main team. I've made plenty of post about this so I don't think I need to say what I've already said.


 * "If it's been in official material, it's okay"


 * I'll agree to it, if every page is put through the same restrictions. Secondly, what is usually considered official material would be anything released by Toei, which the manga wasn't. Say what you will, but that manga was released by Tokyopop and not Toei.


 * It's hilarious how you claim I broke the rules by removing "evidence" that relies on straw-picking to be usable


 * Oh, and this isn't?


 * T.K. and Kari are the only ones who smile when they say "Digi-Armor Energize!" ("Digimental Up!")


 * Your views intrigue me, but that's besides the point.


 * (i.e., not acknowledging that T.K. and Yolei were doing something similar, and how that is proven to mean diddly-squat)


 * I would not have had a problem with that edit, had you only taken out the irrelevant part. My problem was that you deleted the "proof" for everything on that episode, including the picture. That seems somewhat harsh for one part you did not agree with.


 * That's poor storytelling at best, and messy deus ex machina at worst. And Davis not having dreams? WHAT THE HELL? If he's so damn obsessed with Kari, how the hell did that not pop up? Or being a soccer champion or selling noodle, which he mentions again at the end of the episode!)


 * Blah, blah, blah. Here is where you went wrong with your argument, as you state your opinion matters more than canon itself. You might think that the show should have gone a certain way, but the writers didn't. And as well all know, main writers>>>some random fan. And what's so deux ex machina about it? He himself stated in the original that during that moment in time, he was happy with his life and his only ambition was defeating BelialVamdemon. You insult his characters, which furthers my theory that you are a shipper. Your opinion states that moment was not an important aspect seeing as you had no problem with that edit, calling it unimportant even. And he was not "so damn obsessed with Kari" as you so boldly put it, he had a simple school yard crush on her. And when was it ever stated he wanted to be a soccer champion? Enlighten me. You might think that it should have been your favorite character who resisted the illusion, and you are free to think that, but canon says you're wrong. Call me rude if you want, I'll welcome that with open arms, but through that one post alone I can see you're the kind who thinks his opinion is actually worth something, which I assure is not the case. In the end, learn to form your arguments.


 * On an unrelated note, watch the caps-lock of rage, please. Out of common courtesy


 * We're very lax here, compared to other wiki's, but if you make yourself insufferable, you can still be removed


 * I wouldn't be too sure about that, for I edit for dramatica.--Kid Dolomite 11:24 PT, 22 July 2008


 * ....At this point, I'm just going to say, F*CKING READ THE PAGE YOU KEEP COMPLAINING ABOUT. I removed that speculation bit, since someone else had already started doing it (it's called CONSENSUS), and I've tried to start discussion to get the Takari page cleaned up. You keep complaining about me trimming things here, telling me to discuss first, and then whine at me when I try that on the Takari page? Who's the F'ing biased shipper, then? If you want me to start work on the Takari page, get someone to reply on the talk page, so I know I'm not alone in thinking those parts need cleaning up! That's how wiki's work!
 * Toie does NOT own the Digimon franchise. It covers the anime portion. Anything officially published under the DIGIMON name, under whatever company, should be fair game. Otherwise, this is going to turn into another "canonicity" crapshoot.
 * I didn't add the damn "Digimental Up" thing, and in fact suggested it be removed. Stop f*cking trying to pin other people's actions on me.
 * BECAUSE NOTHING SOLID CAN BE DRAWN FROM THE PICTURE. If that situation is used as proof of romance, all similar situations should be judged similarly - i.e., anyone holding another in that scene should have it used as proof of romance. It's a standard test for straw-picking - if someone can say "Well, what about this other set of people, doing the exact same thing?", you should give the same answer.
 * The hell? No, he talks about wanting to be a soccer champion randomly during the series, and this very page claims he has an obsession with Kari (ironic that you admit it is a "simple school yard crush" in order to defend that it isn't). Later in the episode, he says that he "opened up a noodle shop, like he always wanted". I have no problem with Davis being the one who resisted the illusion - I LIKE Davis. I have a problem with THAT SCENE BEING MESSILY WRITTEN, JUST LIKE I SAID. If it had explained it as "regrets", instead of hopes and dreams, the whole thing would very nearly make perfect sense. Or if Yolei, who had appeared pretty much perfectly content throughout the series, had been the one, that also would have made sense. It's clearly deus ex machina - you do realize what that means, right?
 * On the other note, why are you using this to accuse me of being a shipper? And why do you try to bring the "you're just one fan" into it (by the way, that's not even true. I've seen this same complaint from prominent members of the fan community who are in frequent contact with the producers, and have had real interviews with them and other cast members. I can even give you links).
 * ....if you don't want me to use caps lock, then don't make it seem like you can't f'ing read. You keep making the same damn complaints, and I keep giving you the same damn explanations. I'm trying to help you, and you keep accusing me of being the bad guy. You are making yourself VERY hard to stand.KrytenKoro 07:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow there, buddy! Calm down. Contrary to popular belief, the internet is in fact, not serious business.
 * Now, while Bandai may have been the one to properly own the digimon franchise, Toei is the one who owns the anime rights. bandai is a "toy" company, Toie is the "anime" one.
 * As for the interviews, the only one I know who does them is the guy from the Digimon Encyclopedia, btu even then they're from the English cast. However, if you can prove those interviews came from reliable sources and can be proven as so, then link them. I've met plenty shippers (mostly Takari and Taiora) who claim they read an interview claiming something about their couple.
 * About your little rant that Daisuke and his resistance to BelialVamdemon was Deux ex machina (which I know what it is), your opinion, not canon. if he obsessed over something, then he would not have been able to forgive Ken as easily as he did. it was part of his character, whether you see that or not is of no concern to me. Your opinion does not dictate what went on in canon, which makes me happy. Just because you and the rest of your little shippers don't like something, doesn't make it not canon. However, I will not cuss out at you, I am better than that
 * FYI, I actually laugh at all shippers for this fandom, seeing the the series did not revolve around these kid's love life. So I once again laugh at you. The only reason I chose to defend this article was because it was being treated unfairly, and it's lulz worthy.--Kid Dolomite 12:21 PT, 23 July 2008


 * Word of advice: Trying to patronize an admin after repeatedly calling him biased is not a way to resolve, or even win, an argument.
 * Exactly. Big f'ing deal if Toie owns the Anime, they're not the emperor of all things Digimon.
 * ...I was giving an example of prominent fandom members who also believe that the MaloMyotismon scene was deus ex machina. Again, I don't flame about couplings, like you've been doing.
 * ...And Yolei was just so completely obsessed about being able to eat dessert alone, despite her having mentioned her siblings getting in the way vaguely, once the entire season? Right. By all rights, he should have had a dream sequence if Yolei did, at least by the way both the English and Japanese versions explained how the attack worked. It was simply poor writing. Again, what the hell does this have to do with shipping? (In fact, if it was that his dream was to defeat MaloMyotismon, as is sometimes suggested, he would still have been sucked into a dream dimension - it would simply be less differentiable from the real world)

Major differences between manga and anime for 02

 * Non-compression differences between the manga and anime that I could find (from The Digimon Encyclopedia):


 * 1) In an inexplicable change, it is T.K. who touches the Digi-Egg of Courage and releases the D-3s, rather than Tai, and it is an Airdramon who attacks them, rather than a Monochromon.
 * 2) The Tortomon from "Davies Cries Wolfmon" is now a Control Spire Digimon, while the Digimon that Yolei and Hawkmon battle is a Minotarumon, rather than a Golemon, as it was in the show (the events of that battle are not shown, in any case). It is Ken and Stingmon who advise the kids to Digivolve their Digimon naturally, rather than have it happen of its own accord, meaning Davis is not pursued clean across the DigiWorld, and Cody is not buried in a cave-in.
 * 3) BlackWarGreymon does not vanish into darkness, as with the anime - here, Azulongmon takes him into his own light to give him peace. Azulongmon also talks considerably less.
 * 4) The original Digimon do not help the new team fight SkullSatamon.
 * 5) In a notable change from the anime, Daemon is working *with* Oikawa, rather than attempting to steal the spore away from him. When Daemon vanishes, no indication is given that he has been sent to the Dark Ocean, presumably because it has barely been mentioned up until now.
 * 6) BlackWarGreymon arrives at Oikawa's home, rather than a mountain cabin, and the reason that BlackWarGreymon returns to destroy Oikawa is not given.
 * 7) Oikawa - under Myotismon's control - is the one who kills Arukenimon and Mummymon, with blades of dark energy, and when the energy that is Myotismon emerges from within him, it actually physically transforms his body into MaloMyotismon, rather than having them exist as two separate beings.
 * 8) We only see Ken's illusion, and it is he who frees the other kids from their illusions, rather than Davis.
 * 9) Azulongmon's Digi-Core is referred to as a piece of his Destiny Stone by Gennai.

1, 4, 6, and 9 don't even seem that much of a problem, anyway.KrytenKoro 21:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

A Personal Note
To KrytenKoro, whatever hate you may have for this couple, leave it outside. No one here goes to the Takari and purposely deletes someone else's opinions unless they state something as true fact. I put my part in the speculation side, meaning it's just an opinion. On a different note, just because you don't think something is proof does not give you the right to delete it. There are things in the Takari and other pages I don't consider proof, but if that's what the fans believe for that ship, then leave it be. Unless it states that something happened that didn't, I see no reason to delete it. We're all grown ups here (I hope), so can we at least act somewhat respectable to others opinions? I don't expect you to agree, but only two of these couple pages are not opinions.--Kid Dolomite 4:48 PT, 16 July 2008
 * Seriously KD, use your brain before talking smack. I don't "hate" DavisxKari - I simply dislike having shoddy evidence on ANY of these pages. "They sit next together in this one scene" is NOT evidence of a lasting relationship, and that's all I'm trying to say. I am as agreeable to any of these pages as another, so long as the "evidence" is not ridiculous and grasping for straws. Remove whatever "evidence" on the Takari page you think is shoddy, I don't care. I'm not a fanshipper.KrytenKoro 21:41, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Everyone just needs to calm down here. Remember that this coupling pages only have very basic guidelines, so handling disputes like this is something new for us. -- Ned Scott 00:50, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Alright, time for me to come in. First things first, I now clarify that the Couplings pages will accept any kind of evidence from any officially released media of Toei. Meaning all the manga, Anime, and movies (games not included). In these pages, we have to neglect canon and continuity, for that will be very messy. We can also partially ignore glaring evidence about other couplings in the same movie/episode/manga. I will also presume that all who edit the pages are neutral when doing so, regardless of what couplings they hold at heart....
 * I think maybe I ought to create a rules page for this. - Digi9346 03:36, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. As long as we're saying were the info comes from, then the reader can choose to consider those facts or not. -- Ned Scott 03:43, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Problem is that people who come here editing the couple pages do have strong opinions. Where does one separate opinion from "fact", as one persons views differ from someone else's? I look at the Kouzumi page and tell myself, those are just opinions. Rather than letting my bias nature work, I just leave it alone and hope for a fan of that ship to format it better later on.

While we're at it, should there be a note to distinguish if something only happened in the English Dub? I think it would help to state that certain things only happened in the dub, and not the original.--Kid Dolomite 9:19 PT, 16 July 2008


 * Agreed. Differentiating between original and dub is necessary. - Digi9346 04:34, 17 July 2008 (UTC )
 * I agree to what seems to be proposed above. Any officially published material should be available for use in these pages, but notes should be made when they came from different sources (such as Japanese vs. dub, manga vs. anime). However, spouting off in the article about "Oh, just ignore the manga" is only going to make the article look like a debate, and make it useless.KrytenKoro 21:41, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Problems

 * When Flamedramon & Davis, along with Pegasusmon & T.K., save Kari from the Guardromon she says: "Davis, T.K., you are my heroes!" The first name she said was Davis' name.
 * When Davis makes a good sliding tackle to an opponent, Kari is yelling to him: "Good Job, Davis!" 
 * During the Soccer match against Ken, Kari is holding DemiVeemon(Davis' Digimon) and she's yelling: "Good Luck Davis!"
 * When Davis is not too sure of his own abilities Kari yells from the stands: "Don't worry Davis, you're still a hero!"
 * When the game reaches half time, Kari compliments Davis for his very good goal: "You're very good, Davis!"
 * A few seconds before the second half started Kari didn't stop yelling for him and continued encouraging him: "Don't worry Davis, he's just a kid like you!" Ken is a wonderchild! 
 * In the digital world, the DigiDestined, without Davis, fall into the ground. Veemon notice that he want to jog. Davis: "I'll care more about Kari and the others!". He only said Kari's name.

The commentary (specifically "The first name she said was Davis' name." and "Ken is a wonderchild!") are specifically the kind of "hmmm" arguments we don't need. Furthermore, the whole list of compliments she makes really should just be shortened to something like "Throughout the soccer game between Davis and Ken, Kari cheers Davis on". Personally, I don't think it's really evidence of romantic inclinations - if I remember correctly, the whole team was cheering for Davis, and it was more of a "Nakama" moment. Most moments like this, where the whole team is actually cheering on one member, should not be misrepresented as evidence of a relationship unless something special, like a hug or something like "You were cute!", "You're my hero!" etc. is said.

The Episode 17 and 18 snippets also seem to be more of interpreting Nakama moments as Eros moments.

Notes that one character says one name first also seem to be a bit superfluous - relationships are built on much more than who you view as the leader of the group.


 * "Since it was not properly stated who ended up with who (besides Sorato and Kenyako), one can assume Davis and Kari are married in the 25 year epilogue. "

Is beyond the pale. Not only is it claiming evidence from absence, but it ignores the quite explicit precedent set up - the mixing of hair, or the appearance on the finale poster. Yes, it is physically "possible" that they ended up together, ignoring all the precedent set up beforehand - it is also possible she adopted a child, or experimented with cloning.


 * "It should be noted that the Tokyopop manga is not related to the anime and runs independently from it. "

The Tokyopop manga IS related to the anime - it is based on it, written by a professional game/anime>manga company, and it is quite close to the anime. Plus, it has akiyoshi's name on it. The most that should be said is that "in the manga adaptation, ..." The "It should be noted above" makes it sound like the manga is actually about Fullmetal Alchemist or something, and it makes the article sound condescending.

The above two I will remove, as I don't believe they can be defended. KrytenKoro 21:55, 18 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I will state it quite clearly here.


 * I do agree with you about condensing some of the evidence into a sentence or two, granted only if every coupling page has to go through those same standards. However, if something is to be removed then there should be a talk as to why.


 * Now I have to ask, why do you only remove the speculation part from this page and ignore the one from the Takari page? That's an opinion, so it what is written there. Seems hypocritical to want it removed from one page and not make a big fuss about it in another page. It's the same thing, so why?
 * Your other arguments about the V-tamers manga are quite flawed, as prove that you can't even get your fats straight. The V-Tamers manga had nothing no do plot wise with Adventure/02 except for the Taichi character. The Taichi from that universe is never mentioned having a sister so you saying that, and I quote; "I was TALKING about V-Tamer, which INCLUDES Davis and Kari within it (as a reference to 02), AND mentions Kari liking T.K. better." Again, they do not exist in that set universe so it would be impossible for her to like T.K. better. Get your facts straight.
 * And you say that the manga didn't derive from the anime? Here are a few things different from it. Demon is shown working with Oikawa, a complete contradiction to the anime. It was Ken who save them from BelaiVamdemon's illusion, not Daisuke. Wormmon didn't help Daisuke find the golden digimental and still dies with no build up. Daisuke and Miyako share their evolution episode, plus many other things that didn't happen in the anime. You also add Tokyopop is an American company who followed the dub more so, we have quite a few contradictions. I suggest you look it up before you get your facts wrong, as you just did.
 * I've stated mostly fact here, yet you are stating opinion. Before you go on and state something, make sure you get you facts straight as it hurts your credibility. That is all--Kid Dolomite 4:01 PT, 18 July 2008


 * I hate to get involved, but I must clarify a few things. The Takari speculation is allowed to stay mainly because of the post-anime Finale Poster depicting that TK and Kari have a possible future together, which is why it isn't removed. Daikari has thus far no evidence of such a thing yet. So it is not exactly the same thing.
 * While it is true that the 02 team does not exist in the V-Tamer world, there is a chapter where the two groups meet, a crossover, if you will, in Book 4 I believe. Thus, KrytenKoro is partially right, but I don't think I see anything about Kari saying she likes TK better.
 * And please calm down, both of you. This is the exact reason why we try to ignore arguments on continuity. So long as there is a Digimon Davis, Kari or TK in anything that is officially released, it is considered good enough to have evidence extracted from it. So please stop going on about how Tokyopop manga is related to Anime and all those stuff. They are just variations of the same thing to me, two different realities with different ways things work out. A slight reference to V-Tamer and Adventure is a good example. Or maybe even how Anode and Cathode Tamer worked out. Same story, but different ways of reaching Millenniummon and fighting different goons, but still the same. - Digi9346 04:09, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll make my argument short and simple; the Tokyopop manga had the go from Disney, as they were the ones who were at the time in charge of releasing Digimon material here. All I'm saying is that it should be noted seeing as it is not by Toei. You also add that they loosely based if off the dub, and we have several differences from the original. Secondly, I have PDF files of the Double Tamers crossover, tough not translated. It depicts that only Daisuke went with Taichi who fought Parallelmon using AeroV-dramon Zero, Fladramon, and Magnamon. He was stating his opinion as if it were fact and had to correct him. By saying that Kari and T.K. were closer and liking each other in that version lead me to believe he is a shipper who can't stand those who have different opinions that himself/herself. About the speculation, why only have it for one couple and not another? Some one said to ignore continuity for the sake of another couple, and I don't really see how this poster means anything. In then end, the only two couples that are canon are Kenyako and Sorato. If this is a fan site that allows for people to state opinions, than I don't see why only side is has to be put thought restrictions.--Kid Dolomite 4:12 PT, 19 July 2008


 * Yes, I will admit that I did say that we should ignore continuity. But fact is fact. If you can find me one piece of concrete evidence that Davis and Kari get together beyond the main season (both anime and manga), I will allow it.
 * If you wish to have a translated version of V-Tamer, Digital Starlight is the place to go, though I'll save you the trouble and simply put the download links here. But I will agree that saying TK and Kari were closer in V-Tamer (or were you talking about Tokyopop?) is rather inaccurate. I interpreted the chapter (Double Tamers) as rather neutral in terms of couplings. But I am not so sure about the fansite part... - Digi9346 05:59, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

...what I was mentioning was that in V-Tamer, Davis complains about Kari listening to T.K. all the time. This is an insignificant detail, and I was only mentioning it as a parallel to the trivial bits we have on here - as I said before, these kind of things are not good evidence of a real relationship.

I have also explained before that I currently patrol recent changes. Due to several problems, among them a broken computer and infrequent access to the internet, I don't have time to go in and do massive article rewrites for now like I want to. If you want me to do something to the Takari page, go edit it, and I'll look over it; but I'm not in the mood to spend my time on article's noone's looking at.

I'll check the Tokyopop differences when I get home and have access to my manga, but those honestly don't seem like massive changes - pretty much just condensation, and someone else's interpretation of an unspecific plotline.

Again, I am not a shipper - I'm actually really bored when seeing the massive flamewars and amateurish fanfics written specifically to fabricate relationships, and I'm actually averse to the existence of all of these pages. The closest I get is enjoying Takato's devotion to Jeri, because it drive's the later half of that season's plot, and there's actual substance there. But it gets truly, truly annoying when you keep trying to right me off as simply "being in denial", or accusing me of being biased by not editing other pages - this is the page I'm working on now, and it has substantial problems.

Sorry for sounding aggressive, but it really sets me off when others try to write me off as being "biased", or trying to shift the topic.KrytenKoro 06:47, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I never once said that you were in denial, all I said was that you were hard on this article yet leaving others alone for doing the same. This is why I said you were bias; because you choose to say certain things aren’t allowed for one page but are so for another. When things like


 * T.K. and Kari are the only ones who smile when they say "Digi-Armor Energize!" ("Digimental Up!")
 * are allowed as proof, I have to ask if this Wikia has a preference for certain couples. There is nothing wrong with that, but just state that, rather than a place where one could have their own opinions. Maybe you don’t have specific couplings, and frankly I don’t care, but if that’s the case, than why make a big deal over it?
 * As for the issue about the Tokyopop manga, one glimpse of their home page will tell you that they are an American company. They had the go from Disney, so these “interpretation” as you call them have nothing official about them. They may have the same name, but they practically followed the characterization done in the dub for Daisuke/Davis, which by now most fans will know the difference. And what’s this about them not being mass changes? A lot of parts for characters were changed, which is in fact a massive change.--Kid Dolomite 3:28 am PT, 20 July 2008

...for the love of good, I explained why I haven't been cleaning up the other coupling pages yet, and I even went and did a massive critique on the Takari page as soon as someone edited on it. I never said I approved of similar things on the Takari page - ONLY THAT I HAVE NOT GOTTEN TO THAT PAGE YET. Take your damn foot out of your mouth. Furthermore, while Tokyopop may be American, they still have a good record of sticking to the anime continuities, and the Digimon manga were written in Asia. The characterization they give Davis is nothing like it was in the American anime, anyway.KrytenKoro 07:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I have to ask, why do so many points keep getting dropped without a reason? I can understand when something is non-canonical, but all that seems to be dropped in the last few revisions seems to be differences between the dub and original, which I thought were considered by consensus to both be relevant? --Blazing Chaos 21:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Kid Dolomite made it clear that he will only accept Digimon material directed by Kakudou, so in order to compromise with him, all other material must be removed. If he changes his mind, or he agrees to a different sort of "consensus", we can bring most of that back. Oh, and, sorry KD, I was wrong. According to this, Tokyopop is quite a Japanese company.KrytenKoro 23:35, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Eh? Surely a consensus is something agreed on by the majority, not by one? --Blazing Chaos 23:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

That's what I thought too, but he keeps either removing the manga note, or writing a "it should be noted" like the only thing the manga and anime share is the name "Digimon". If he's not willing to stop this behavior, and I'm not willing to ban him for edits intended to be constuctive, this is what has to happen.KrytenKoro 23:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

A word of advice
I'm not sure how clear I can make this, but here goes: coupling pages are not serious articles. These pages are for the enjoyment of fans, specifically split out because they will contain a large amount of speculation and silly little notes. If we can't enjoy ourselves in editing them then maybe we need to rethink how we're doing things here. Does it sound stupid to list things like "they were sitting next to each other"? Yes, but so what. These pages are for us to pretend about the things that could have been.

I have a few ideas on how we can move forward here. One is to use the "speculation" section more, or create a section that notes if something is a bit more trivial. Allow the reader to get the "facts" first, then start going off into those other areas. Another idea is to have more than one page for the same coupling, allowing like-minded editors to work on their own version of it. We have an article voting system that we don't really use much, and it would be a perfect tool for a sort of "natural selection" of which version gets mentioned first. Who knows, but we have a lot of options here that are better than getting mad at each other. -- Ned Scott 06:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I apologize for getting so worked up about this, and I shouldn't have done the whole "throw the baby out with the bathwater" thing, but KD's constant whining about "canonicity" is really starting to get to me. I've tried sticking to canon, like he asked, I've tried discussing it, like he asked, and I've taken a look at the Takari page, like he asked. At this point, the only thing I can think of that would make him happy is if every page of this wiki proclaimed "Davis and Kari got married and had lots of babies and then became the king and queen of everything!" All I really want to do is get the page neutral, and trim some of the misrepresentative stuff like "they say the other's name sometimes", or "they act like friends to each other" (stuff that has to ignore the cultural or plot context to act as "evidence"), while also adding better evidence, and I'd like to do this with all the coupling pages.


 * Arg. Well, if even that is too much for certain editors, how about I look up some of the well-done essays, or some of the fan-fiction wiki articles that would provide an excellent history of the shipping community? Or should I just stay away, and ask one of the other major editors to take care of these pages?KrytenKoro 07:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)


 * (repeating some of what I said from my talk page, for others to see) I agree with pretty much everything you've been saying there, and you haven't done anything unreasonable. But these coupling pages are going to be magnets for this kind of stuff. We'll all keep our sanity longer if we can find a way to divert this stuff somewhere, rather than try to stop it completely. It's like some massive flow of water that just seems to come out of no where. My thinking was that we should find some way to segregate those weaker little tidbits, allowing the stronger content to be more prominent. -- Ned Scott 08:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Blush re: ep21
I thought I read somewhere (maybe Digimon Uncensored?) that Kari's blush from the driving/sleeping-thing-next-to-Davis was a dub insert (put in the dub, not present in the original)? "I was thinking we should try to remember what it was like when we were kids." "It's a different world now, Jack." "Yeah, I know."  22:51, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Koji & Zoe
It looks like Zoe cares a lot about Kouji,but in just one episode she shows that she likes Takuya(anyway there arethere are tracks in other episodes,but in this episode,the Cracks they see the couple CANON) (red cheeks,wants to go with Takuya,and she hold and she grabs his hand)so it looks like this couple dont have many possibilities of been CANON

--KakashiCoolXX 21:33, January 9, 2010 (UTC)KakashiCoolXX

Normal Discussion
Hey, I'm the first to comment? Well I sure hope more Takumi shippers come :) Happy shipping! Well if you happen to stumble upon this page Please tell if you like this particular shipping or not and if you do please state why, I'm just curious :D

Hiya, Lady Devimon... don't forget to sign you posts with ~ or the signature button (so we know who you are!) I like shipping, but that sounds like something that should be discussed more on the Forum then on the talk page for Takuya & Zoe (this should only be about issues regarding said article)... I haven't watched Frontier anyway, so I can't really comment on Frontier ships.--Rad140 01:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Kazu & Kenta
Also, Hirokazu and Kenta actually kiss in episode twenty-six when they both accidentally trip, but this is edited out of the English dub. Proof:

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll163/Minamoto-chan/Digimon%20Tamers/Hirokazu%20and%20Kenta/kazukenta0009.jpg


 * Which is an accident. That doesn't count.
 * Please sign your posts. Only dead fish go with the flow. 04:45, November 30, 2009 (UTC)

Episode 39
I've revised this episode, and Sakuyamon was saying 'ni-nan, daijoubu'. "Ni-nan" translates to something like "You guys" or "You all," not specifically directed at Takato.

Also, since we didn't get a camera shot that shows both Sakuyamon and Takato at the same time, we can't say that her concern was placed towards Takato.

Moreover, Jen answered after Sakuyamon asked, too. Even though he's not directly answering her question, it still indicates that Sakuyamon's question was directed towards everybody, not just Takato.

Evidence from the English specific dub
A lot of the evidences shown in the page are taken from the English, Americanized dub only. Most of them are not seen in the Japanese sub itself.

For example, in Episode 41, Ruki doesn't asks (or say, for that matter) anything when they board the ark. She merely called his name and snatched his hand. That's it.

According to the guidelines page: Anything exclusively from the English dub and prominently not in the Japanese version must be marked.

The evidences in the page are not marked.


 * Please sign your posts!


 * I'm aware they're not marked; however, I'm trying to rewatch Tamers (original and dub) to verify everything. It's hard because PositronCannon hasn't finished subbing, the Spanish dub isn't altogether accurate, and I hate the English dub so much it's a straining process to see it (that last one's my fault)... Only dead fish go with the flow. 19:01, September 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * I could probably help out here. I'm rewatching Tamers anyhow using the subs, so I could probably help you cover some ground, also perhaps looking out for anything you miss. 05:44, September 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * *Gasp* Same here LOL Digigirls Rule!!! ANd DoNT u 4gEt iT 18:43, January 3, 2010 (UTC) BTW that means I've seen the english dub (and luv it) and am now watching the japanese.

Henry & Alice
The reason as I see why Alice and Henry is good for fan fiction is because then all of the main characters are a couple (Takato and Jeri, Ryo and Rika, and Henry and Alice).

Recent vandalism
As unhelpful as it was, he actually kind of had a point - these two never really even talk to each other, and there's nothing on this page to provide any kind of reason for its existence. I'm going to go ahead and put up a delete tag, because there just doesn't seem to be anything whatsoever that could be put on this page.
 * Unless, of course, we decide to retool these to be factual and about the fan community, in which case we could try to cover how any such meme evolved. Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day.  But set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.  20:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I actually agree here and have always seen this couple as a filler for Rukato. Only reason I deleted the last edit was because it was vandalism even through I agreed with it. All-in-all, I'm all for deleting this seeing as it has nothing on it.--Kid Dolomite 23:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)