Talk:Minotarumon

The Digimon Dictionary bio is based on his Adult form, not Perfect. Look on the "Level" tab of the bio. 12:20, June 28, 2011 (UTC)

Appearances
The way I handled this and with Whamon was that if the level was given, it was placed in the appropriate section, and if it wasn't, it goes into both. Redundant, yes, but I figured it'd be more complete that way. Lanate (talk) 18:47, June 28, 2011 (UTC)

Picture
The image on Minotaurmon perfect belongs to adult, because appear in the Digimon Dicionary. --Ignimon / Aquí deja lo que quieras decirme 16:58, March 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, but depictions of the Perfect form use the same art, so there's no reason not to just use it on both (as with the Mega- Digimon from SDT). Same thing should probably be done with Whamon. 16:50, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Darkside Quake
This technique is only described in its old profile, which is not currently linked. However, the rest of the profile citation works. Should we cite the technique separately? 20:35, February 25, 2016 (UTC)
 * We typically don't link profiles, but a ref note explaining that it was removed from the linked profile in the wake of the tsunami/earthquake events is the kind of trivia/explanation I'm comfortable with. Lanate (talk) 03:16, February 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * So, just to clarify, instead of linking a cite to the old profile for that technique specifically, add a trivia section noting that the profile was specifically excised? If that's what you meant, yeah, I can implement that. Should we do that with Magnamon's Extreme Jihad as well? 22:24, March 3, 2016 (UTC)
 * Looks like it was added back at some point. I still added it based on your description, unless you consider it no longer note worthy.Marcusbwfc (talk) 06:16, October 6, 2018 (UTC)

Both levels at once
How come we're doing this, and not just using a ref note to say its a Ultimate in a V-Pet and a card? unlike the Whamons, I dont think there's a source where one turns into the other, and there's only one DRB profile unlike Whamon. Should this not just be treated as the situations where levels change sometimes? such as GoldNumemon being a Mega and Champion depending on media. Wikimon's profile sections are identical too, I don't really see a reason to have this page like this?Marcusbwfc (talk) 07:54, January 8, 2019 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately because of the stupid card game have a card for both levels, both wikis believe they are distinct species even though there is no reason to treat the older card as still canon since the card games are dubious as a source to begin with given the whole Justimon mess because of Collectors even though the DRB directly contradicts Justimon EX and most media explicitly doesn't treat the arm modes as separate species in the first place. There's a reason I treat card games including Collectors as Secondary Canon as in only canon if they do not conflict with a higher canon tier. Chimera-gui (talk) 08:50, January 8, 2019 (UTC)
 * Masters is also one source and has four Shoutmon etc but Shoutmon isnt treated as five species. If we're treating it as a different species shouldn't we have two pages? Also Examon is Mega in CS but Ultra in HM. Same universe. So yeah, rather than have the page listed like this, why dont have have two pages for Minotarumon, instead of one like this? Marcusbwfc (talk) 08:58, January 8, 2019 (UTC)
 * The card game doesn't just give it a different level. It also gives it a different name, which is one of the primary criteria we use (why we don't differentiate every recolor of a Digimon as a different species, why we didn't split off Miko Mode and Priest Mode until they were canonized, etc.). It goes out of its way to do this in a medium which more often combines what other media consider different species into the same name -- ex. the initial BlackWarGreymon cards being called "WarGreymon".
 * Throwing out the card game as canon won't be as clean as you suggest -- firstly, it is still being published, and secondly, if we decide it's non-canon, it gets removed from the wiki. Completely. We don't cover non-canon info, at least not in the mainspace, and we definitely wouldn't get to cite it in some instances (the win percentage cards, various card blurbs like Imperialdramon being the Royal Knights founder, Digimon who only appear in the cards, stats that only appear in the cards) but not in others. It's either canon or it's not, so if we're going to throw out a specific piece of a publication (example 1, 2), we'd need a statement specifically from Bandai, speaking in Bandai's voice, errata-ing the original info out. Until then, claiming it's the same species would be fanon.
 * Star Wars officially set up different levels of canonicity (until they later officially discarded them all), but that would, again, have to be an official designation, not one we come up with ourselves, and it applies to the publication as a whole, not just a single scene or piece. Thus, invalidating the Minotarumon card would require at least throwing out that Lotteria card set, if not the card game as a whole.
 * As far as the DRB -- yes, the Justimon situation is annoying (though I disagree with your claim that most media doesn't treat the arm modes as separate, because as far as I can tell most media doesn't actually depict more than one arm mode to begin with). The DRB is also one of the largest and most consistent sources of canon, so if we're tossing that as well then we really are throwing out most of the wiki. And, while we're at it -- most media don't treat Daemon and cloaked Daemon as different species, or Sakuyamon and Miko Mode, or MagnaAngemon and Priest Mode. Then there's cases like Beelzemon, where the Xros form is not always treated as a separate species.
 * As far as Shoutmon -- Masters does in fact seem to display them as separate species, so yeah, they should probably be split (not saying "definitely" because it's not clear that the species haven't been removed from the game, i.e., errata'd out).
 * Also, please try to be more fair about acknowledging opposing viewpoints, when we've had this conversation multiple times. I've been trying to do the same for your views on the v-pet evolutions. 15:09, January 8, 2019 (UTC)
 * The different name was probably because they couldn't just call the Adult level Minotarumon just Minotarumon because of Perfect level Minotarumon card. The card for Perfect level Whamon consistently does this even though the Adult level Whamon is the one to get parsered in the Reference Book. It is the older Minotarumon card I want rendered obsolete since the only acknowledgement of it is from a set that itself dubious in canonicity given the legal situation of species from V-Tamer. Also please don't misconstrue my statement regarding the Reference Book. I am saying that the DRB treats Justimon and Justimon Accel Arm as one and the same based on url and romanization while only Collectors treats the Blitz Arm as "Justimon" making "Justimon" seem like it's actually a collective species name shared between multiple subspecies like Trailmon and MegaKabuterimon rather than a species in and of itself.  I'm trying to be fair but at the same time, we've gone around in circles on this shit and it is getting ridiculous. Chimera-gui (talk) 17:13, January 8, 2019 (UTC)
 * Neither of the Minotarumon cards are related to V-Tamer, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. If you mean the Callismon card referencing Ultimate-level Minotarumon as an evolution, both Bo-535 and Bo-203 also reference the Ultimate-level Minotarumon, and even if they didn't, I'm confused what you're trying to imply with V-Tamer. It's canon.
 * At this point I can't parse what you're trying to argue with Justimon, then. The DRB is the only source that calls any of the Justimon anything but "Justimon", and it clearly differentiates the different arms as different modes/forms. What does Collectors have to do with this?
 * That's really not a reasonable response. I'm not asking you to agree with me, I'm asking you to acknowledge that there isn't unanimous support for your viewpoint, like I've made pains to do in situations where Marcus asks about v-pet evolutions per DW:EVOLVE -- I've made it clear to him that my position was not the clear consensus and that there were opposing arguments, and it's not accurate to tell Marcus that there's "no reason" for how the wiki currently does things, when you know very well that there have been a lot of reasons given, even if you disagree with them. I also agree that it is ridiculous that we are still having this argument, as I and the other admins had already agreed that the situation would change if there was any actual statements from Bandai supporting your desired distinctions for canonicity. At this stage, you haven't actually demonstrated why anything should be considered non-canon other than that it makes more species pages than you'd like, and it's unclear why that should be our criteria -- we already have ample precedent of visually identical Digimon explicitly belonging to separate species, or visually different Digimon being treated in a source as belonging to the same species. To my knowledge, the closest we have to statements on canonicity is various authors (ex. Konaka) saying they weren't involved with a specific film (without explicitly disavowing it), or character designers making statements on twitter under their personal accounts, claiming stuff like there being no level beyond Ultimate/Mega.
 * Collectible card games almost always have errata as a natural function. If either of the Minotarumon cards have been errata'd out, this discussion ends, because that's the source of the two different levels being distinct species rather than distinct stats. 17:41, January 8, 2019 (UTC)
 * Here's the thing, both of the cards you noted came before Minotarumon's level became Adult meaning that Minotarumon's level was still Perfect at the time these cards were made. And while V-Tamer is canon to itself, there are known legal issues that effect the canonicity of any tie-in media such as the card set to the franchise as a whole. The only reason Lanate wants to split Justimon into its own page separate from the three arm modes is because of the Justimon EX card while I've repeatedly pointed out why that doesn't work (BTW, the DRB only differentiates the arms as different modes from each other, not Justimon itself. The original Justimon profile in the DRB was changed to Accel Arm but kept its url as justimon from when the profile was for "Justimon" with no parser: http://web.archive.org/web/20091130045545/http://digimon.net:80/cat-digimon-dictionary/03-sa/justimon/index.html Chimera-gui (talk) 19:04, January 8, 2019 (UTC)
 * I didnt mean to start a war, damn. For the Shoutmons, I think making 5 pages is a bit much (this also effects more than Shoutmon), since there wont be much info on them. How would we treat Rookie Shoutmon? would it go on both pages for levelless Shoutmon, and Rookie Shoutmon - or would the Rookie Shoutmon from Next Order and Links only be counted on the Masters Rookie Shoutmon? that seems like it'd be wrong to do, since the Masters version is from Masters, which isnt in Japan. For tht reason, I think they should be left as they currently are, as it's a bit of a headache, unless I guess it goes on both pages, but then that begs the question of "what's the point of splitting?". That then brings me to what I was actually getting at for Minotarumon. I was thinking "why isn't this page split?" but then I guess that brings in, say one shows up in the new movie for Adventure... do we list it on the Champion page? the Ultimate page? both? I guess a combined page makes more sense, but I think I still prefer to have it listed as a Champion, with Ultimate as a ref note due to only one of them existing in the DRB for now, unlike Whamon.
 * As for Justimon, youre slightly wrong. Next Order refers to Justimon in the card list as Justimon: Accel Arm. That's the only Justimon who shows up, though. The "other two" don't show up. So like Zwart Defeat, I guess that implies the full name of the playable (and enemy) Justimon is Justimon: Accel Arm. If we did split them though, we'd be using the names currently on the pics of Thunderclap etc.Marcusbwfc (talk) 01:39, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
 * "Minotarumon's level became Adult" -- That's begging the question (and not quite accurate to the timeline, see next paragraph).
 * "meaning that Minotarumon's level was still Perfect at the time these cards were made" -- it shows that the Minotarumon card being treated as an Ultimate was not referenced solely by V-tamer. Honestly, there's more references to Ultimate Minotarumon in the card game itself than there are to Champion Minotarumon (and Ultimate-level Minotarumon also appears in Digimon World 4, D-Spirit, Digimon Xros Loader, and Digimon Fusion Loader. The Appearances in the loaders seem to contribute to why wikimon treats the Xros Wars appearance as the Ultimate also, long after the original Minotarumon Adult card).
 * Looking back at the facebook chat, I'm forced to agree with Lanate on the Justimon EX card for the same reasons we've split other digimon into separate modes (miko mode, priest mode, beast mode, etc.), and it seems the most organized way to do it as well -- it provides a separate Justimon for each attack (three arms and kick), without making any specific arm form the "Default", and it solves the seeming problem of two variations of the official Bandai art for just one mode.
 * As far as DRB urls, we have Andiramon (Deva) [Andiramon] vs. Andiramon [Andiramon 2], atlurkabuterimon (blue) [atlurkabuterimon blue] vs. Atlurkabuterimon (red) [atlurkabuterimon], ballistamon [baristamon], Caprimon (capromon), Cherubimon (Vice) [Cherubimon Vice] vs. Cherubimon (Virtue) [Cherubimon], Examon [exsaon], Greymon (2010 anime) [Greymon] vs. Greymon [Greymon-first], KnightChessmon (Black) [knightchessmon black] vs. KnightChessmon (White) [knightchessmon], Lucemon Falldown Mode [rucemonfalldownmode], MetalGreymon (Digimon Xros Wars version) [metalgreymon] vs. MetalGreymon (Vaccine) [metalgreymon-v] vs. MetalGreymon (Virus) [metalgreymon-web], PaunChessmon (Black) [paunchessmon] vs. PaunChessmon (White) [paunchessmon-white], PetiMemramon [petimeramon], WereGarurumon [weregarrumon], Whamon (Champion) [whamon 2] vs. Whamon [whamon], YaegerDorulumon [yaegerdorurumon], Yatagaramon (2006 anime) [yatagaramon] vs. Yatagaramon [Yatagaramon axcel]. The DRB has a very good precedent of not only letting the first instance of a species group get the base name alone (see MetalGreymon and Yatagaramon for the most annoying examples), but just in general not caring to fix even the most egregious url errors (exsaon) for years and years. I can see why you would view the url as setting the Accel Arm as the default Justimon species, but that's both not really relevant to the Justimon EX situation (which is between the activated and unactivated Blitz Arms), and not terribly convincing to me given the DRB's history.
 * For Shoutmon, unless Shoutmon has been removed from Digimon Masters, or the digidex screens are given in a pointedly different context for the xros digimon than the other evolution lines (seems to only be in the Korean version, and I don't know Korean so...)...then, unfortunately, Masters does seem to explicitly be saying that they are different species. I would be happy to treat these Masters-only species like Citramon (though that would seemingly also include the other speciations we've derived from Masters, like Daemon Beast Mode).
 * Whatever ends up happening with Minotarumon, this page should only contain the one infobox. Whether that means fully merging or splitting, the current state is not per MoS.
 * If a new Minotarumon shows up, and its level isn't specifically stated or strongly indicated (like the Tamer games and Xros Loader toy do by placing it in the Ultimate sections of the field guides), then we'd either assume it's the same level it had last time in that setting (so, a champion for Adventure), or the level in the DRB (also Champion) until told otherwise. That being said, Ultimate-level Minotarumon have appeared in Digimon products as recently as 2012, and the Champion-level as recently as 2017. There was never any moment where the species clearly switched from being one level to another throughout the fiction -- it's just rarely been specifically called "Minotarumon (Champion)" when it appeared as a Champion, like MegaKabuterimon (Red) is generally just called "MegaKabuterimon", or in-fact most non-mode Digimon are rarely actually given their parsed names unless displayed directly alongside their counterparts -- and, in fact, very much like how a Digimon just called "Whamon" was generally treated as a Champion when it appeared, despite the default "Whamon" name being officially for the Ultimate version. 15:37, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
 * How do we know Minotarumon is Ultimate level in World 4/X? people also seemed to assume he and Whamon were Ultimate level in world 3, but the card list has them as Champions, and TMS stated his World 3 Japanese guide lists them as Champion enemy Digimon. I'd like to see him as an Ultimate in the Xros Loader and Wonderswan games for confirmation, though I suppose that may be difficult. Youre correct on Champion version Minotarumon being used most recently, a the medal list of Hackers Memory uses Champion level Mino in it (the medals have a colour for each level, yellow is for Champion and Minotarumon's medal is yellow). Rather than being removed, I believe the Xros mons in Masters are just exclusive to Korean players
 * So for Digimon with the same appearance that can get different profiles:
 * Minotarumon champion and Ultimate (we only have one page for him)
 * Shoutmon/Dorulumon/Ballistamon Rookie, Champion, Ultimate and Mega (Masters) (even tho Shoutmon Rookie is Rookie, I'd prefer to only treat this for Masters, and keep the Rookie Shoutmon of Next Order and Links on the no level version of Shoutmon, OR put it on both pages),
 * Tanemon Champion, Ultimate, and Mega (Masters)
 * Baihumon/Azulongmon/Ebonwumon/Zhuqiaomon Champion (Masters)
 * ToyAgumon Ultimate (Masters)
 * Digmon Champion (the one from Drimogemon is Champion, the one from Armodillomon is Armor) (Masters)
 * MagnaAngemon Priest Mode (Wikimon seems to indicate that both are in the Xros Loader, with Priest coming from a DigiFuse of Angemon, Frigimon, SnowBotamon and Baihumon, whilst the original MagnaAngemon is able to Digifuse with Lucemon to become Falldown Mode)
 * The Justimon (Wikimon seems to have "Justimon", "Accel Arm", and "Critical Arm", without "Blitz Arm", and their pages are all identical (appearances/evolutions) making them slightly pointless IMO. for what its worth though, here's the justimon crtiical arm card, and it uses only the name "Justimon", unless it's different when not in picture mode: https://wikimon.net/File:Justimon_criticalarm_collectors_card.jpg
 * Lilithmon and lilithmon no level (collectors and super xros wars have both species together, meaning we have more than one media that depict them as different species). since no levle showed up in the anime, it means we'd have laylamon as no level, and lilithmon as the mega version. (and unlike Justimon, the Lilithmon's dont say their name on the card, the level is the differentiater, as well as the two having different names in Super Xros Wars)
 * Shoutmon and Shoutmon King (Collectors treats King as its own species. it seems jintrix does too. in this instance, it uses the name "king ver." it would appear this would count as a digivolution break, with it being shoutmon -> king -> omnishoutmon)
 * The NX Digimon (Hacker's Memory) and the Mutant Digimon (Links).
 * Wikimon states that KingWhamon has a dubbed trading card using the name "KingWhalemon". IDK if this is enough to count him as his own species. Wikimon also states both Whamon and KingWhamon appear in Super Digica Taisen.
 * I think that's all of them. Also, you mentioned treating the Masters guys as similar to Citramon, but he has his own page anyway: Citramon.
 * If we make pages for the guys were were talking about, all these other ones I brought up count too.Marcusbwfc (talk) 16:57, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
 * The Xros Loader page on Wikimon states Minotarumon is boss only NPC btw, so I'm not sure we can say in full confidence it's Ultimate level there.Marcusbwfc (talk) 19:51, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
 * Just an FYI Marcus, this has been a contested issue for us for the past year. This is the card we're talking about when we say Justimon EX: https://wikimon.net/File:Justimon_collectors_card.jpg  And the reason I'm not convinced "Justimon" is being treated as its own species is because as Marcus rightly noted, all Justimon cards use "Justimon" with no parser.  While the Reference Book isn't always clean, we have multiple confirmed cases of profiles being changed (any mentions of earthquakes, Antylamon to Antylamon Deva, KingChessmon White to just KingChessmon) as well so I feel like we shouldn't be dismissing it right out either. Chimera-gui (talk) 23:24, January 9, 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh. Well, the Justimon I linked is also a Justimon EX card too. Justimon has four, two for his normal arm, and one each for the other two arms. All four are just named "Justimon" on each EX card. Shoutmon King has a EX card too btw. So does Lilithmon 2010. If Justimon gets four species pages due to this card, then so should KingShoutmon and Lilithmon 2010. It's also worth noting the game as has "RE" cards, and out of the mentioned mons only Justimon Blitz Arm, normal Shoutmon and original Lilithmon have "RE" cards.Marcusbwfc (talk) 00:45, January 10, 2019 (UTC)
 * Which is all the more reason why we should completely disregard the EX cards altogether as Wikimon does and treat everything outside the Reference Book as secondary canon and thus able to be tossed out if the DRB contradicts it. Chimera-gui (talk) 03:50, January 10, 2019 (UTC)
 * Also, you're completely wrong regarding Minotarumon Kryten, no media after 2003 has ever explicitly listed it as Perfect. Wikimon is assuming that Minotarumon is Perfect in Digimon World X, D-Spirit, Digimon Xros/Fusion Loader because they treat the Perfect level as default because it came first despite the Adult level being the canon on if we are basing purely off of the DRB.  Neither DW4/X nor the D-Spirit list Levels for enemy Digimon and Xros Wars media completely omits the tradition Level system altogether apart from Super Xros Wars hence why I'd take any level information from it with a grain of salt. Chimera-gui (talk) 04:15, January 10, 2019 (UTC)


 * I see ジャスティモンEX, ジャスティモン(アクセルアーム)EX, ジャスティモン(ブリッツアーム)EX, and ジャスティモン(クリティカルアーム)EX, all of which are differentiated in name, so I don't see why all of them are just Justimon.


 * Shoutmon King use (King Ver.) to indicate a Shoutmon variation, like the game has Beelzebumon (Behemoth Riding Ver.), Dukemon (Riding Ver.), and Omegamon (Anime Ver.), as well as various holiday and alternate artwork "Ver.". Lanate (talk) 04:24, January 10, 2019 (UTC)
 * Look at the text on the card itself, not kana from some Japanese wiki that doesn't even give a source for it. Chimera-gui (talk) 04:52, January 10, 2019 (UTC)