Talk:Lilithmon

Super Xros Wars
Super Xros Wars distinguishes the XW Lilithmon from the previous Lilithmon. However, the ONLY actual difference between the Toei art and the Bandai art, other than the slight angle in their pose and a slightly lighter shading due to the Toei art, is that the Toei art has a single extra red hairpin on the left side of her hair.

Furthermore, the asahi and toei profiles are replicas of the original Lilithmon's profile, and her attacks (other than the new "Empress Embrace") are all the same as the original Llithmon. Finally, the poster uses the original Bandai art for her.

I'm willing to create a new section for "Lilithmon (2010 anime)", but I'm not willing to say that this "Digimon" appears anywhere but Super Xros Wars. Bandai is being ridiculous here, it would've made more sense to set "Lilithmon (Massage)" as a separate Digimon. More popular, too. 21:05, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * We could simply do what we did with Shoutmon. G-SANtos 14:31, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Is there anyone here with the game who could provide the profiles for Lilithmon L and Lilithmon? 20:07, February 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Lilithmon L
 * With a body clad jet black, it is a Demon Lord Digimon which has the appearance of a woman, and holds the alias of "Goddess of Darkness". It confounds its opponents with that bewitchingly lovely appearance and puts them to death.


 * Lilithmon XW
 * A Demon Lord Digimon which has the appearance of a woman. It confounds its opponents with its bewitchingly lovely appearance and puts them to death. When it is leading an army corps, it reveals a cruel side that relentlessly cuts down subordinates who make mistakes.

What do we want to do with this? 03:52, February 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * How about doing the same thing we do with ExAgumon, ExAgnimon, and etc.? Another question would be what do we want to do Digimon Masters's Tanemon. 13:21, February 10, 2012 (UTC)

LadyDevimon Digivolve to Lilithmon???????????
Is Lilthmon, LadyDevimon's Mega form? User:Venage237
 * Only on a few cards. They use Arukenimon, too. 23:25, June 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * LadyDevimon is the evil counterpart of Angewomon while Lilithmon is a evil Ophanimon Angewomon digivolves to Ophanimon common sense people
 * Cool story, bro. Except that she digivolves to Minervamon in Digimon Masters. Wocka wocka. 00:56, October 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * chain evolution digimon can have different digivolved forms an example from digimon masters is devidevimon can digivolve to either devimon or soulmon depending on the egg you have
 * And yet, LadyDevimon does not digivolve to Lilithmon in Digimon Masters, and in fact does not digivolve to her anywhere that she does not also digivolve to a hundred other Digimon with equal validity. that's why we have DW:EVOLVE; to pick out the ones that the series actually highlights. 06:44, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * And Yet, You truly can't use Digimon Masters as an absolute Reference because they don't use every digivolution example Dorumon's Mega form of alphamon doesn't exist in it.
 * Yeah, we're not using it as an absolute reference. As I said earlier, there is no publication in which LadyDevimon evolves to Lilithmon but does not also evolve to dozens of other Digimon. I also linked you to our policy, DW:EVOLVE: the infobox only lists evolutions of characters not the species in general throughout cards etc. 05:44, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

Lilithmon (Fused)
I would also be willing to interpret it as "Lilithmon Darkness Mode", though we'd need evidence of another Darkness Mode getting an Analyzer screen without the suffix. 18:34, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

"Lilithmon + Blastmon"
The official recap seems to call it Majuu Lilithmon (魔獣リリスモン), or at the very least still Lilithmon. Should we use it? Lanate (talk) 06:47, October 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, they also used "Huge NeoVamdemon" for NeoVamdemon Darkness Mode (Vampire Army), so it's a matter of taste. I would translate it as Monstrous Lilithmon (like Fused AncientVolcamon), if we want to take it as a name and not just a descriptor.
 * I think it might be a good idea to collect all the sources for the various "not quite sure what the names are" Bagra guys, from Lilithmon's forms to DarknessBagramon's, and make a consistent decision on them. 13:46, October 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I've done most of the cleanup for the DarkKnightmon Darkness Modes and I made Lilithmon Darkness Mode (Blastmon)‎. However, I can't figure out what to call the Darkness Mode with Blastmon and the Vilemons. I...suppose we can leave it as is, but it seems much cleaner to me, based on her just being called Lilithmon and not Monster Lilithmon or Fused Lilithmon in the anime, to make them into Darkness Mode names. So far, I've considered Lilithmon Darkness Mode (Head Officers), (Twilight), and (Blastmon and Vilemons). Anyone have any other suggestions, or reasons why we should pick one of these? 08:10, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ended up combining the two: Lilithmon Darkness Mode (Fused) and (Monster). 18:12, January 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * I remember seeing a leaked sketch that called Darkness Mode (Fused) as "Fused Lilithmon" (Gattai Lilithmon). It was leaked before the start of Death Generals and Wikimon uses the image. Should we say this anywhere on the page, even if as a ref? 20:21, February 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we use a ref for the MadLeomon forms, so yeah. I don't think it should be in the profile, however, since it's from a non-canon source. 20:40, February 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * What do you mean non-canon? It's a leaked sketch, and came BEFORE Death Generals started. The same happened to Ohanamon and Dorbickmon's Darkness Loader. 21:01, February 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * In the same way that Kabuterimon being Gravity Beetle from Rockman X3 was a published sketch, and is still non-canon. It's non-canon. 22:04, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Partner
Okay, here are some questions:
 * 1) We count every human->Digimon as a Partnership, so should we count Yuma Kagura as Lilithmon's Partner?
 * 2) Yuu should be Lilithmon Darkness Mode (Fused)'s Partner, right? 20:12, February 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes and yes. 22:14, February 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * For the DigiXroses made by Apollomon Whispered, should we count Apollomon or Apollomon Whispered as the Partner? You said on DarkKnightmon's talk page that we should count the Death Generals's armies as their Partners. 22:59, February 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Whispered. 02:35, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't Lilithmon herself be counted as a partner to Yuu Amano after she was conscripted into Twilight?

Also, shouldn't she be counted as a partner to Whispered/Apollomon Whispered when she made the pact with him for even more power?

Jdogno7 (talk) 23:44, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

Laylamon
Technically, Laylamon isn't even as bad as something like BanchouLeomon. It's still faithful to the etymology.

However, I mean, come on. Lilithmon is all over the wiki. Would we rather enact the switchover, or relax the requirements to first dubbed anime-continuity naming? This would also retrieve the names from Digimon World Data Squad for us. 10:17, September 8, 2013 (UTC)

Layla="Born at night, night beauty, dark beauty" Lilith="Female night demon"

Urgh... I agree that it's (relatively) faithful to the etymology of the word. But for fuck's sake, I really want to wring the neck of whoever decided to change Lilithmon's name. They didn't change Lucemon, why the hell did they go and change Lilithmon's name to Laylamon?

Honestly, I'd prefer to have Lilithmon be the title of the page, and then have Laylamon be a sub-heading underneath that to identify what they call her in the dub. Compromise.

I swear, if they changed any more well-known Digimon names in this dub (i.e. none of the new Digimon introduced in Xros Wars/Hunters), I'm gonna end up flipping a table or six... The Red Grandmaster (talk) 01:13, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's possible the Japanese owners requested the change. Toei and Bandai sometimes requested name changes for Digimon that already had English names, and sometimes for nonsensical reasons, and when they do these requests, the American licensors have no choice in the matter. For example, Ben Diskin said SlashAngemon will be "SlushAngemon" despite being GuardiAngemon in previous English materials because Toei requested this name change. 02:17, September 18, 2013 (UTC)/23:17, September 17, 2013 (Brasília)


 * Hmmm... Hadn't thought about that possibility. Although considering that Lilithmon's top now completely covers her bust in order to hide her cleavage, I'd wager it's more likely that the American censors had something to do the change. What with Lilithmon being named after the Demon of Lust and all. Don't want those "innocent kiddies" thinking about stuff they shouldn't be. *rolls eyes*


 * (Side note: now that I think about, I'm terrified about what the censors will do to Bastemon. She's worse than Lilithmon as far as showing off skin is concerned.) The Red Grandmaster (talk) 02:33, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Lilith is not the Demon of Lust, Asmodeus is. Lilith is the Demon of Feminism. Digimon and its dubd are both shows for childern. 05:21, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Gah. I completely forgot about Asmodeus. I was thinking of Lilith being the first succubus (according to Jewish folklore) when I typed that. And when I say "innocent kiddies", I'm referring to the fact that America's censors tend to be more prudish than the rest of the world. Differences in culture creates problems like that I suppose. The Red Grandmaster (talk) 05:52, September 18, 2013 (UTC)

Nickelodeon is likely to blame. Oddly IceDevimon kept his name. Considering the nature of the name change I don't think it should effect the article name or anything linking to it including the Lilithmon from the anime(that article could probably keep it's name)... Kore wa shomeidesu. (talk) 13:29, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's been said that Toei's has had its hand in it too. In addition, it's currently our policy to list article names by its most prominent dubbed anime name. Lanate (talk) 13:39, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * It directly contradicts an already established localized name. You might as well be calling BomberNanimon Citramon by that logic. Kore wa shomeidesu. (talk) 19:04, November 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * We've routed around that issue by classing Citramon as a dub-only Digimon. On the other hand, this has been established policy here since we codified naming conventions, wow, almost 5+ years ago? Lanate (talk) 04:13, November 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Is it really THAT difficult to make an exception given the circumstances? And Citramon is still BomberNanimon no matter how you look at it. It's not a separate digimon. At all. Kore wa shomeidesu. (talk) 07:36, November 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it would be pretty difficult, because (1) Laylamon isn't even a terrible name (SlushAngemon is), (2) if we start going by "earliest localization", we are both ignoring the source that most users are going to be familiar with (the anime), and we're going to have to start spending more time comparing exact dates for product releases, and making sure we check the name exactly. Plus, we'd have to use a lot more truly objectionable names, like "Darkmon" for Devimon, just to satisfy one really-acceptable name, "Laylamon".
 * Also, BomberNanimon/Citramon is not an analagous situation, and it is absolutely nonsensical to claim that they aren't different Digimon, "at all". 15:41, November 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * It is a bad name actually. Lilithmon is a demon lord digimon. Bastemon can get away with being called Beastmon because she's nothing like Bastet literally the only connection in fusion is that Bastet was the goddess of warfare(the male Beastmon statue, but this is just speculation). She's an anthropomorphic cat, not a humanoid with a cat head. Lilith on the other hand in once case is not just a witch but one who kills children(tried to cutAngie's arm off, who knows what she would have done once she had the code crown), sometimes associated with the deadly sin of lust(her appearance and Digimon World Data Squad), and I'm certain there's plenty of other connections. Also, I'm not saying change the policy, I'm saying make an exception. Huge difference.
 * You got your demonology (and mythology regarding Bast and Digimonology regarding Bastemon) wrong. Asmodeus (even referenced on the code key of lust) is the demon of lust, and pretty much always has been. Lilithmon is the demon of egalitarianism, if she represents anything at all.
 * In any case: you say to make an exception, not change the policy, so I say: "why?" What possible benefit do we obtain from subverting policy in this one instance? Is it because the "Laylamon" name is fundamentally inaccurate? No, it's not, it was prominently displayed on an official Digimon publication; it's official and to treat it as unofficial would be to lie. Even if this was a fansite instead of an encyclopedia, "Laylamon" isn't even an egregiously bad localization -- it's an alternate descendent of the same root word! Is using the name as presented some kind of obscenity or word that could get us in legal trouble, a la "EngorgedCockatrimon"? Not really, no.
 * In other words, there are three options: current naming policy, revised naming policy prioritizing localized names based on some other criteria, or full-on Japanese naming policy. Since wikimon already uses the Japanese names, and our dub-focus is pretty much the only thing that separate us from them in intent, that one's not much of an option. But any "exception" is by-definition arbitrary, and the reasons for it almost wholly ludicrous due to how much of a non-issue the localized names are. 21:15, November 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * First of all, it depends on which version of Lilith you're going with, there's several. Second of all, if you're really not going to make an exception, I suggest locking Beelzemon's page when he inevitably gets a new name, because unlike Citramon you can't make the "different digimon" argument, and I imagine that new name is going to cause a lot of backlash. Also: What publication? I'm looking at the publications category right now and there are none that are american, let alone recent. Also, why? It's got nothing to do with the etymology, I told you, it's the demonology. You can see on that wikipedia article that Lilith is indeed associated with lust. Bandai didn't just associate her with lust because of her looks or several versions of her where she commited said sin. In fact there's even at least one version that ties her directly to Leviamon, a fellow demon lord. Lastly, it's funny you mention Asmodeus: According to Binsfeld's classification of demons' version of the seven princes of hell, Lilithmon shouldn't even be one of the seven demon lords. Yet she fills his spot. Kore wa shomeidesu. (talk) 22:46, November 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * We're going with the Christian mythological interpretation of Lilith as a demon as depicted in the medieval grimoires, as done with the other SGDL; I'm not seeing any other significantly disparate "versions" besides uses in modern literature and occultism, which don't even really have cultural worth at this point, and the "version" critique is mostly a red herring anyway since the Digimon version of Lilith is basically syncretized from popular consciousness, with call-outs to various representations. The root (and meaning) of the name, though, are the same.
 * As for Beelzemon: we can easily make the "different Digimon" argument, because Beelzebumon (Xros Wars) is officially a separate species than Beelzebumon, as recognized in the Digimon Reference Book. We just do the same thing we did with Yatagaramon/Crowmon: use the first dub name for a species as given. And here's the important part: Situations like this are why we have such a clear-cut policy, because it makes organizing this stuff and knowing what name to use very easy. Going in on exceptions, even if they were for names that were actually significantly different, like Sleipmon/Kentaurosmon, make it much more difficult to get the community to agree on what names should be, and encourage arguments and editing that uses incorrect names, degrading the wiki.
 * The publication is called Digimon Fusion. The name "Laylamon" has been displayed, spelled as such, since the first episode credits, and is therefore an official localized name for that species. Digimon Fusion is also quite recent, having started airing this year.
 * The relevant demonology (not modern occultism(!)) primarily associates her with the allure of feminism and women not beholden to men. Her main myth, of how she was cast out, depicts her as sinning by choosing feminine equality, and then has her as a mother of demons, with the seduction that she commits with the primary aim of destroying mankind's children and increasing that of the demons. She is Asmodeus's consort, but he is the demon who holds dominion over lust. And again: the demonology wouldn't mean squat about disqualifying the name, as "Layla" is the same root name.
 * "The semitic root L-Y-L layil in Hebrew, as layl in Arabic, means "night". Talmudic and Yiddish use of Lilith follows Hebrew."
 * As for the gripe that there isn't an Asmodeusmon as the SGDL of Lust: yeah, and there isn't a Mammonmon for Greed or Satanmon for Wrath, either. They're not trying to set it up as a direct 1:1 with the mythology, they're just designing Digimon after well-known demons and then mapping them to the sins. The historical grouping of demons is represented on the Crests of the deadly sins, not the Digimon themselves. 16:31, November 26, 2013 (UTC)

Sub-discussion
This does bring to the head the issue of how the hell do we cover the Lilithmon subspecies of Super Xros Wars? SXW is pretty much the only source that differentiates the XW Lilithmon from the general species, and there are plenty of sources that explicitly depict the extant Lilithmon while talking about the exploits of the XW character. 16:34, November 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Aren't we treating them as the same thing? This sort of parallels the two Daemon versions in Digimon World DS, and we consider both of them Daemon there.  For all intents and purposes, we can treat them separate within the context of Super Xros Wars but the same in the overall continuity. Lanate (talk) 17:50, November 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, so as forms rather than separate parsed species. Gotcha. Yeah, that makes way more sense. 18:46, November 26, 2013 (UTC)